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Author Topic: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles  (Read 10183 times)

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Offline slokind

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Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« on: April 25, 2011, 05:12:06 pm »
• 191011 AR hemidrachm  14mm 2.00g 10h  Thessaly, Oitaioi.  c. 360-344 BC.   Head of the Lion pacing holding a spear in its mouth.  Rev. Herakles with club.  SNG  /cio 176.
exCNG 253, lot 33.
The Herakles may reflect one like the Landsdowne type.
I wanted the use of that lion badge, holding a spear in its mouth, in 3/4 view from a town of which I knew only the name, with a nude, young Herakles.
I still haven't photographed it well enough, but this is not too bad.
Considering how die engravers tend to pictorialize statuary types, and so allow the club to be held more freely (of course, that support is an addendum of the marble copy), this frontal, nude, young Herakles really does resemble the Landsdowne type:
• Bonn, Akademisches Kunstmuseum.  Plaster cast of the Landsdowne Herakles, now Malibu.  Once commonly attributed to Skopas.  Boardman refrains from giving it to any name, but Todisco suggests possibly Euphranor (as with the Apollo Lykeios; I think he can't have them both!).
So far I haven't found either the town or the statue in the Oikonomides conflated reprint of Imhoff-Blumer & Gardner, but the similarity of the coin's Herakles to the Landsdowne (Malibu) type cannot be quite accidental.
And I do like that Lion's Head in 3/4 view.
Pat L.
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Offline Will Hooton

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2011, 05:27:09 pm »
Intriguing coin. Is the significance of the spear in the lions mouth known?

Offline slokind

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2011, 10:58:28 pm »
See Arminius' reply here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=49482.0
And replies #13 and #15 in this thread: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=41009.0
But I'm failing to find at least one that I think I've seen.
Yet I don't find it in Head's HN Index Rerum.
I don't see what it can mean, basically, but "our fierceness beats their weaponry", and it has caught my attention because, though Greeks value valor, this does not seem to me to be a typically Greek emblem.  I keep thinking it ought to be Cilician or Phoenician (how's that for ethnic profiling?), but I can't find it as such.
Pat L.
Mine seems to be Sear GCV I, no. 2155, citing same BMC no. as Head, but no comment on spear in mouth.  Has anyone seen in in a mosaic or a relief showing Macedonian hunting, for example?

Offline Dino

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2011, 02:11:08 pm »
See below link for Macedonian lion references:

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Macedoniansymbols/MacedonianLion.html

Pictures from the link below.

I think the lion on your coin looks very similar to the statue with the wrinkled, snarling brow.

Offline casata137ec

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2011, 11:00:58 pm »
Pat, I have no idea on the meaning of the lion and spear, but I had to comment. What a beautiful coin! I absolutly love it! I have added it to my mental list of coins to aquire (a bust of Men is another of yours that made my mental checklist :) ).

Chris
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Offline slokind

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2011, 05:47:36 pm »
Thank you, both.  Yes, that was the still alive-looking later 4c BC kind of lion I had in mind, Dino.  And, Casata, I, too, could not resist the coin.  Though the lion-head in 3/4 view caught my attention first, I also found that nude young Herakles interesting, and the usual description that it is Herakles holding his club with both hands, which will be unique if true, was arresting.  I am interested in Herakles types.  Not only do I know of no depiction of H. doing that; it is not the right way to hold a club.  And I'm not sure that even the tetrobol Sear 2158, a little larger and perhaps a bit later, holds a single club in that way.  I wish mine were clearer.  BCD to the rescue!  I am not sure, of course, of the specific relevance of the Landsdowne type, but like the Pella lion hunt, it is an illuminating comparandum. 
I just finished writing to a friend that I gauge the prices I have to pay for coins in terms of the value in credit hours at a good university.  This is no way to build for re-sale, but I may buy as I please to the extent that I can.
Pat L.

Offline slokind

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2011, 06:30:10 pm »
http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?search=thessaly%2C+oitaioi&view_mode=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ol=1&sort=&c=&a=&l=#0
OK, here's as fine a collection of these hemidrachms as you'll ever find, I daresay.
I conclude from studying them all, many of them with better Herakles than mine, that:
(a) Herakles does hold the thing across his body with both hands, BUT
(b) the thing is not a club or cudgel, and
(c) it seems to have a knob on one end, but this surely is no way to hold a scepter, either
(d) the figure of Herakles is indeed generically like the Landsdowne, but the significant motif, doubtless specifying Oeta's own Herakles cult, is different.  The ideal body proportions and stance and the turn of the head are what it shares with the Landsdowne.
And yes it is Kassander who is listed with a lion mauling a spear, also using his forepaw to break it, but I can't find a good image of it.
Pat L.

P.S. the hastiest Googling produces http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=oetaeus+hercules&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8,
and I do know about Herakles' death from that dreadful poison shirt, but as such it doesn't explain why he might hold a short spear or a long cudgel athwart like that.
We should all know Sophokles as well as Seneca did!

Offline iolkia

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2011, 02:46:29 am »
Dear slokind

As you surely know, Herakles died in the town of Trachis on the mountain of Oita.

In 426 BC Trachis was renamed to Herakleia Trachineia by the Spartans. It became later (409/8) the capital city of the tribe of the Oitaioi and the mint where coins were issued both under the name of the Oitaioi and  the name of the city itself,  in an analogue way to other Thessalian tribes as the Malians in Lamia, the Ainianes in Hypata or the Perrhaiboi in Oloosson.

For a study of the mint of the Oitaoi see Ch. Valassiadis in ΟΒΟΛΟΣ 7.

The types of the mint refer to Herakles and his attributes. Later they are inspired by the Aitolian typology.

The obverse type of the series where your coin belongs depicts the ΞΙΦΗΡΗΣ ΛΕΩΝ. According to Moustaka (Mythen und Kulten) it refers to the Labours of Herakles but also to the struggle of the Oitaoi and it clearly predates the similar depictions on Macedonian issues.

On the reverse Herakles is holding his attribute, a club. In some dies it does look like a sceptre as you mention, but it is a club. Take a look at the BCD specimens in the ongoing Nomos auction for some very detailed issues. Note the beautiful didrachms!

Regards,
C.

 

Offline slokind

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2011, 12:24:44 am »
Dear Hidden and N/A Iolkia: I should very much like to read and study Valassiadis in OBOLOS 7, but for some reason libraries in Louisiana do not have it.  The Oitaioi may be a minor mint, but the coins certainly are interesting, excellent at their best. 
I do expect to get the current Nomos catalogue.  With the help, in some cases, of friends, I do have all the other BCD catalogues.  They are invaluable.
Yes, the lion is certainly xiphêrês, since he is bearing a sword, and Euripides used that epithet in a combative sense; I only wondered whether there was an aetiology, a specific allusion, for it here.  Yes, earlier than Kassander.  You don't say why Moustaka said "it refers to the Labours of Herakles but also..."; on line, one gets tired of reading generalities.
I am not looking forward to wading through the two Seneca plays, so I thought I'd try the Sophokles, even if imperfectly transmitted, first (and I doubt Seneca independently picked up any particulars of local cults), also check LIMC.  B. V. Head already had the connection with Heraklea Trachineia neat and correct.
I have become accustomed to descriptions that assume that anything held by Herakles is his club.  So it is, usually.  But on reading that the Oitaioi were the possessors of his Death Narrative, I thought that, in principle, I ought to find out whether they had anything other than (or in addition to)  the poison, burning shirt.  And, while at the university library, I can check the LIMC for other images of Herakles with a long club held athwart.
As for the Trachiniai, I just realized that I do have the OCT for Sophokles in the house.  Much easier for me than reading Seneca.
I like to study a new coin of some interest, when I get one, in the manner of a seminar course.
Thank you for that reference to OBOLOS 7!
Pat L.

Offline iolkia

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2011, 03:27:56 am »
Dear slokind

Since it is difficult to obtain a copy of the ΟΒΟΛΟΣ 7 in Louisiana I could send you a xerox of Vallasiadis' article if you wish.

You can see the BCD Thessaly 1 catalogue online under sixbid.com. Here the coin I mentioned earlier:

[DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Moustaka does not give a particular reason for relating  the ξιφηρης λεων with the labours of Herakles, but it was not my goal to render her whole article here. I also disagree with this generality. I agree with the interpretation of the spear breaking lion as an allusion to the aggressive nature of the Oitaoi and their bravery in their combats.

Similar types have been used about the same time also in other Greek mints like Pantikapaion [DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] and Kardia [DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN].

For an absolutely beautiful coin with a similar iconography- posterior to these issues though - see:

[DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

I find peculiar that, while issues both from Herakleia Trachineia and the Oitaoi feature a lion's head on the obverse, only on the coins of the latter the lion is xiphêrês.  The lion's head on the Herakleian issues is depicted either with a closed mouth or with open mouth and protruding tongue.

Best,
C.



Offline Frank J

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2011, 05:39:36 am »
I'm sure we are all familiar with the little Taras / Herakleia fractions with Herakles strangling the lion on one side and Athena's head on the other - the best of which are in my opinion some of the best designed dies of any mint anywhere. The variations seem endless: I have one with Herakles standing astride the lion trying club it, but also one with Herakles strangling the lion with one arm and with the other arm (dangling rather uselessly) quite clearly holding a sword.

Is not the whole point of the story that Herakles, who in other exploits is shown with a bow and arrows (Thasos) as well as with a sword, only resorted to strangling the Nemean lion precisely because its skin could not be penetrated by sword or by spear ? Presumably he tried with more conventional weapons first, but found his sword useless (hence the Taras version) - and his spear (outstretched to stab) was simply crunched up by the lion, as on the coin under discussion here.

I seem to remember also that the lion could only be skinned by using its own claws - but that bit of the story is not relevant here, though it does reinforce the point about the impenetrability of the skin !     

Offline Frank J

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2011, 05:56:45 am »
PS Just had a close look at the coins thrown up by the acsearch link kindly posted by slokind above, and also at my own coin, and it seems to me that the weapons held by Herakles are indeed clubs, but of a rather more elegant type than one usually associates with him (e.g. as featured in the Roman Farnese Hercules.) After all, a mace only had one lump on the end, but was still a pretty lethal weapon.     

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2011, 06:27:45 am »
I'm sure we are all familiar with the little Taras / Herakleia fractions with Herakles strangling the lion on one side and Athena's head on the other - the best of which are in my opinion some of the best designed dies of any mint anywhere. The variations seem endless: I have one with Herakles standing astride the lion trying club it, but also one with Herakles strangling the lion with one arm and with the other arm (dangling rather uselessly) quite clearly holding a sword.

I have once read a very clever Joe's comment on that.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?param=41262q00.jpg&vpar=64&zpg=52042&fld=https://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins2

Regards,

Rover


Offline Frank J

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2011, 06:41:47 am »
Thanks for the link, Rover   :laugh: ! Absolutely; "let's try the club" (club bounces off the lion's head) - "ah shucks, still got the sword" - (sword makes no impression) - "how about trying a spear ?" (one bite from those jaws and it's broken) - "nothing for it but brute strength: just as well I've been doing the body-builder exercises..." (grabs lion round neck with one arm and proceeds to strangle it).

Regards - Frank

Offline Frank J

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2011, 07:32:54 am »
Dear slokind -

PS: to return to your post. Looking at the current Nomos catalogue (probably the best produced I've ever encountered; brilliant for anyone with a special interest in Thessaly, and very entertaining as well !),  1217 (v. rare didrachm) has Herakles with an obvious large club resting on the ground, 1215 (rare hemidrachm) has a pretty clear 'lumpy' club held transversely but horizontally, 1212 (rare hemidrachm) has a moderately clear but less lumpy club held not quite horizontally, and 1211 has the more elegant club (as in your coin) held more diagonally. They are all described in the catalogue as 'clubs' by ASW, and BCD (who has no hesitation about quibbling here and there about ASW's descriptions and comments) hasn't picked him up on this one. [try [DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] should bring up all the above. ] It does raise the question, though, as to whether some of the coins are intended to show a rather different type of club. Any weapons experts out there ??

Regarding the 'pose' of Herakles, the contrapposto way of standing (weight on one leg, one knee forward, hips/pelvis angled etc) had become pretty standard post-Polykleitos (late 5th - early 4th C), so it isn't too much of a surprise to find a similarity with the (much later) Lansdowne. The full-frontal view of Herakles on the Oitaioi reverse is a perfect opportunity for the die-cutter to show his familiarity with the 'new'(ish) way of doing the whole body. Early attempts at 'whole bodies' elsewhere (eg Kaulonia and Poseidonia) show straight legs, one in front of the other, like the archaic Greek statues, and therefore have to be shown from the side.

And yes, the best of Thessalian coins (even from very small towns) show the work of quite exceptional artists - as in the case of your coin. BCD himeself equates the best of Thessaly with the best of Sicily, and they don't come any better than that. (Though interestingly, the artist who produced Nomos 1217 has got the whole thing a bit wrong.... Not everyone was equally good !)  

Best regards - Frank

PS.... and yes, Benito, thanks for that link. Looks as though Herakles is giving the well-fed cat a cuddle there too ! The poor old Romans did their best, but they didn't have much of a clue artistically, did they ?!

Offline benito

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2011, 09:40:50 am »
PS.... and yes, Benito, thanks for that link. Looks as though Herakles is giving the well-fed cat a cuddle there too ! The poor old Romans did their best, but they didn't have much of a clue artistically, did they ?!

You are exagerating. That  Hercules comes from a LRB that with few exceptions do lack artistic merit. But you also can find some wonderfully artistic pieces in Roman coins. Pic of one of my favorites ( better than any Flavian)
And be careful with ancient greeks. As someone said "Equo ne credite, Teucri / Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentes".

Offline Frank J

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2011, 11:05:49 am »
Sorry ! Yes, as the Greeks had it,  :Greek_Mu: :Greek_Eta: :Greek_Delta: :Greek_epsilon: :Greek_Nu:  :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Gamma: :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Nu: - "Nothing in excess" - or in this case, 'don't exaggerate, Frank' ! I have to admit that not all Roman coins are totally lacking in artistic ability. You provide a very nice example. Best regards - Frank
   

Offline Enodia

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2011, 11:58:06 am »
I'm sure we are all familiar with the little Taras / Herakleia fractions with Herakles strangling the lion on one side and Athena's head on the other - the best of which are in my opinion some of the best designed dies of any mint anywhere. The variations seem endless: I have one with Herakles standing astride the lion trying club it, but also one with Herakles strangling the lion with one arm and with the other arm (dangling rather uselessly) quite clearly holding a sword.

i absolutely agree with you regarding the Herakles/lion design from Herakleia and the federal coinage of Taras as one of the best in all of ancient coin art, especially with Herakles kneeling. the overall 'shape' of the subject is ideally suited to the round canvas.  the perfection of the circle! how i would love to add one of the Herakleian didrachms to my collection (sigh).

however i have never seen one with Herakles holding a sword. in my files i have predominantly clubs, with the occasional bow, bow in case, bow with club, etc.
would it be possible to post an image of that coin here?

curiously,
~ Peter

Offline Frank J

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2011, 01:10:14 pm »
Hi Enodia -

Thanks for your query about the Taras Herakles with sword. I was sceptical as well. It came with a note from the dealer saying that it had claimed to be Vlasto 1372, but that it clearly wasn't, and that Vlasto didn't appear to have any 'Herakles w sword' in his comprehensive catalogue.  However, 'Herakles w sword' is not uncommon in vase paintings, (see the famous one of Nessos attached) so there's no reason why it shouldn't be. The close-up seems to show clearly a short sword, with the pommel visible above the hand, and the division between the grip and the blade below.

Sorry it's not a better pic - I haven't got one on file. Hope it suffices to make the point, though.

Best regards -

Frank

Offline Enodia

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2011, 01:42:43 pm »
thank you Frank.

yes i am familiar with the Herakles vase paintings which show him a sword, although i don't know that i've ever seen him with that against the Nemean lion specifically.

i'm also not certain that the coin above clearly shows a pommel, but that certainly appears to be a mangled blade (although it could still be a club i guess). is this from one of the 'three rosettes' helmet types?
hmmm... curiouser and curiouser.

~ Peter

Offline Frank J

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2011, 02:03:42 pm »
Hi again Peter -

No, I haven't seen Herakles in a vase-painting using a sword against the lion.

I agree, it just conceivably could be a distinctly mangled club, but (apart from the pommel) the blade looks to be flat and blade-shaped with a point, to my eye, anyway. Under the glass, in the right light, there's a line going down the middle of it in the way swords are usually shown; not clear in my hasty pic.

And I should have snapped the obverse in the interest of completeness; you're right, three rosettes on the helmet it is.

Thanks for your interest, anyway. I've been admiring the Taras bit of your gallery. Nice !

Best regards - Frank

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2011, 02:32:25 am »
Mea culpa for not finding the Nomos catalogue in Sixbid.  I found it now!  I love BCD catalogues and am studying his Oitaioi now alongside those in ACSearch.
Only one thing: above, Frank J. said that the Landsdowne Herakles was 'much later' than these coins.  But, of course, it is a good pointed copy of a bronze statue of the 2nd quarter or middle of the 4th c. B.C., whether Adolf Furtwängler was right about it's being created by Skopas, or not.  It doesn't matter here, though I still think his attribution, too, may have been right.  The hemidrachms without an ethnic legend have indeed the stance, proportions, maniera, of that statuary type; pre-Macedonian just as the lion head on the anepigraphic hemidrachms is.
I must thank you all, but especially Iolkia, for making this thread so fruitful for me.
Pat L.
Here's a slightly better photo of it.  CLICK to zoom.

Offline Frank J

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2011, 04:50:30 am »
Always good to discuss a nice coin.I take your point about the Lansdowne being at least based on a much earlier original. Certainty in the matter of attribution is not to be expected !
Best wishes - Frank

Offline casata137ec

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2011, 09:31:29 am »
Thanks for the link, Rover   :laugh: ! Absolutely; "let's try the club" (club bounces off the lion's head) - "ah shucks, still got the sword" - (sword makes no impression) - "how about trying a spear ?" (one bite from those jaws and it's broken) - "nothing for it but brute strength: just as well I've been doing the body-builder exercises..." (grabs lion round neck with one arm and proceeds to strangle it).

Regards - Frank

Just a minor correction...from what I understand, Heracles didn't "strangle" the lion with hands around throat, he basically choked it to death by shoving his arm down it's throat. Although not pretty, below are a couple of coins that illistrate this pretty well.

Chris
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Offline Frank J

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Re: Oitaioi hemidrachm with 4c type of Herakles
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2011, 10:26:11 am »
Hi Chris -

Thanks for an interesting post. A new angle to me. Have just checked with Apollodoros, who seems to have the details in outline (trans. pasted from Perseus):-

"And having come to Nemea and tracked the lion, he first shot an arrow at him, but when he perceived that the beast was invulnerable, he heaved up his club and made after him. And whln the lion took refuge in a cave with two mouths, Hercules built up the one entrance and came in upon the beast through the other, and putting his arm round its neck held it tight till he had choked it; so laying it on his shoulders he carried it to Cleonae."

Theocritos expands on the whole encounter in more graphic detail (! - obviously based on an eye-witness account...);-

"I had hidden myself in the shade of some bushes on a woodland path, waiting until [the lion] should come. As he passed, swiftly I loosed an arrow at his left flank--in vain! The weapon held not its course through the ridged flesh, but rebounded and fell on the green sward. Though astonished, he quickly reared his bloody head from the ground, spying all about with searching eyes and snarling showed his wicked teeth. Vexed that my first had idle scaped my hand, I sent a second dart from the string; it struck him full in the chest, the very seat of the lungs; even so the pain-dealing arrow failed to pierce below the hide but fell in front of his paws, equally useless. A dreadful loathing seized me as the third time I prepared to draw and the eyes of the monstrous beast, as they rolled round, sighted me. He lashed his long tail about his lions and his mind ran upon battle; his throat swelled all with spleen; with ire bristled his tawny mane; his spine bent like a bow as he gathered his length below his flanks and midriff . . . so the terrible lion arched himself and sprang from far upon me, raging to taste my flesh. I held in one hand my darts and the cloak from my shoulders, folded; with the other I swung my seasoned club about my ears and smashed it down on his head, but split the wild olive, rugged as it was, asunder on the invincible brute's maned skull. Before he could come at me, he fell, dropping down on the ground and stood on trembling feet swaying his head, for darkness swam about his eyes swaying his head, for darkness swam about his eyes at the stunning shock to the brain's core.
`Seeing him witless with whelming pain, before he could turn and breath again, I was quick to advance and seize him by the scruff of his iron neck, having thrown my bow to the ground with my broidered quiver. Then I throttled him mightily with my stout hands, reaching round from behind lest he lacerate my flesh with his claws. I set solidly my heels on his hind feet and pressed them down to the ground--my knees took care of his sides--until I raised his body up breathless in my arms and stretched it out. Sire Haides received his life. "

So. although the 'arm down the throat' approach sound perfectly feasible (if risky - one account says he lost a finger in the course of the fight, which might have been due to its being intercepted by the teeth...), it isn't born out by these two sources.

Difficult to tell exactly what's going on with the coins, though I grant that they might bear out your version. Where did your information come from ?

Best regards - Frank

 

 

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