Helena Solidus fake

[Mario D]

I have attached scans of a fake Helena Solidus which I acquired about forty years ago in Istanbul. At the time I purchased it for gold value but did not know it was a fake. The coin is 20.5mm and 4.9gm. The obverse legend is blundered and the style just looks wrong. The obverse legend is PL.HULENA.AUGUSTA and the reverse is SECURITAS REIPUBLICE with SMANTB below. I assume it is a modern fake but is it possible it could be a contemporary counterfeit?

Mario DiFede

[Kevin D]

If it is good gold, the same alloy as an old original, then at 4.9 grams it is unlikely to be a contemporary counterfeit (the originals were 4.5 grams). If it is platted or debased it could be an ancient counterfeit.

A good jeweler should be able to tell you what the alloy is, at least at the surface. They might also be able to tell you whether or not it is platted.

Hitachi XRF precious metals analyzer
https://hha.hitachi-hightech.com/en/product-range/applications/precious-metals-jewelery#

[Lech Stępniewski]

Probably modern copy of RIC VII ANTIOCH 80. I would be surprised if it turns out to be good gold.

[Kevin D]

I would be surprised if it turns out to be 4.9 grams of good gold. Maybe there is already a fake coin report on it, I haven't checked (my dial up internet access is running slow today).

[Din X]

If it is good gold, the same alloy as an old original, then at 4.9 grams it is unlikely to be a contemporary counterfeit (the originals were 4.5 grams). If it is platted or debased it could be an ancient counterfeit.

A good jeweler should be able to tell you what the alloy is, at least at the surface. They might also be able to tell you whether or not it is platted.

Hitachi XRF precious metals analyzer
https://hha.hitachi-hightech.com/en/product-range/applications/precious-metals-jewelery#

A plated god coin (synonyms are fourrée and suberat), has always a lower often a much lower weight than authentic coins made from pure Gold.
Density of Gold is about  19.30 g/cm3
Density of Copper is about  8.96 g/cm3

Here the suspected coin has a too high weight with  4.9g

The densitiy of Gold is more than 2 times as high as the density of copper.
The size or diameter of copper coin with the same weight as a gold coin will be more than 2 times huger as of the real gold coin.
Let´s say the size of a real Gold solidus is 2 cm then the size of on made of copper would be more than 4 cm.
Let´s say the diameter of a real Gold solidus is 0,5 cm then the diameter of on made of copper would be more than 1 cm.
It would be of course possible to make a Gold plated fake with copper core with only 50 % higher diamater and 50% higher size.
The forger did as far as I know always compensate the hugher size and diameter of plated gold coins with copper core by making them a little bit or more underweight, because the lower weight is reducing size and diameter a little bit.
The relatio between size , diameter and weight speaks clearly for Gold because it seems to be pretty much the normal size, diameter weight relatio as on authentic solidi from pure Gold.
A plated solidus would have as written above a much hugher size or diameter or a combination of both as a real one made of pure Gold.

In ancient times for some coin series, unofficial emissions and imitations existed and they could have good weight and metal, but I doubt that this coins is one of these.

I do not like the coin the incomplete dotted border is very suspicious but the style is not completely off and so it could be a transfer die fake or recut transfer die fake copied from one of the  Æ Nummi from Antioch.
I could not find authentic or fake coins from these dies but authentic coins would be very expensive and the unprofessional pictures imply that it is or was listed on ebay or somewhere similar and this together with the too high weight + incomplete dotted border rather speaks for a transfer die fake or recut transfer die fake than for an authentic coin.

[Lech Stępniewski]

Here the suspected coin has a too high weight with 4.9g

But we know nothing about the thickness of this coin. Take a look at this nice bronze nummus:


Diameter almost the same: 21 mm - and weight 5.51 g

Another example:



Diameter again 21 mm and weight 5.14 g

[Din X]

With diameter I meant the diameter or better thickness of the rim in my previous post, my English is not the best.
The thickness of this coin would have to be more than 2 times as thick as on an normal solidus.
That should be noticed even by "barbarians" easily.
A lower weight  is resulting in a lower size and or thickness and this would reduce the chance that such a plated fakes is recognized/detected much as long as the weight is not too low at the end.
I have never seen or heard that overweight Gold fourrée  exist (on acseach are only underweight specimens) because the higher the weight the huger will be the size and thickness of the fake and the higher the size and thickness the higher the chance that the fake will be detected and the forger punished.
Another problem is that on almost all plated fakes the plating is damaged, fourrées with intact plating are pretty rare.
And that the alloy and density of underweight coins will checked by some aution houses means that they want to exclude the possibility that such underweight coins are fourrées.
It seems like Experts have an association between underweight of coins and the probability that this coins could be fourrées. 

[Lech Stępniewski]

The thickness of this coin would have to be more than 2 times as thick as on an normal solidus.
That should be noticed even by "barbarians" easily.

Also half-weight should be easily noticed. But this is true only when one is very familiar with solidi. But forgers always search for more naive persons. In their job good psychology is even more important than good skills in forgery.

[Hydatius]

The style is wrong and in that condition it shouldn't weigh more than 4.40 g. If it is 4.9 g, that in itself is proof of modern forgery.
Richard

[antoninus1]

I could not find authentic or fake coins from these dies but authentic coins would be very expensive and the unprofessional pictures imply that it is or was listed on ebay or somewhere similar and this together with the too high weight + incomplete dotted border rather speaks for a transfer die fake or recut transfer die fake than for an authentic coin.

It wasn´t on Ebay, the questioner said he bought it 40 years ago in Istanbul for gold value. As per the authenticity it menas the same
I bought my first ancient coin 40 years ago in Antakya. Eventually it turned out to be not my first ancient coin 

[Kevin D]

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancients-baltimore-show-report-fourree-solidus.244879/

The ancient platted solidus in the above linked article has a silver core, which is visible because of wear, and yet it is only .2 grams below normal weight. I believe this example was likely overweight when new, and that .4 grams overweight is a possibility.

It doesn't take much gold to weigh .4 grams; I just weighed two empty coin flips: one with plasticizers weighs 2.3 grams, one without plasticizers weighs 1.7 grams. These are empty flips, without paper ticket inserts. Holding a 1.7 gram empty coin flip in my hand, it feels light as a feather to me.

I agree that identified ancient fourrees with copper (or similar) cores are often markedly light in weight. I am not sure they were all as markedly light in weight when new. Some of the weight loss could have occurred after manufacture.

I also agree that the most likely scenario for the solidus in question in this thread is that it is a modern creation.

[Din X]

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancients-baltimore-show-report-fourree-solidus.244879/

The density of Silver is 10,49 g/cm³ and Copper has a density of 8,96 g/cm³.
So the density (the realation volume to weight) is very similar.

To use Silver does not bring forgers any real advantage because the density of Silver is only a little bit higher but Silver was much more precious.
And if it would really make sense there would be more ancient Gold plated fakes with Silver core.

The ancient counterfeit of dougsmit  has as expected a lower weigth than normal and is thicker!

dougsmit " It is slightly thicker than normal so, even with the wear it is only about .2g lighter than normal."

I have one ancient counterfeit too which is  Gold plated and has Silver core and has of course underweight.
Bougth it with other modern and old fakes for about melt value and each coin in lot was several times worth more as I paid for the whole lot, I even offered the seller to pay more because it was a real steal but he rejected.
And because it was so unusual with the Silver core I was so confused and even asked for more opinions.
The feedback was ancient counterfeit and the Silver shows aging (cristallisation) and is clearly very old and in hand and under magnification it is extremely convincing and looks 100% ancient.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=122322.0

[Kevin D]

I understand the weight difference between the metals.

What do you think the possible weight range would be for the dougsmit example when it was new? How much gold would be needed to cover all the silver that can be seen on the coin now? I don't think .2 grams would do it. I think that fourree was overweight when it was new. While perhaps not the norm, I think the dougsmit fourree proves that an ancient fourree solidus of 4.92 grams can be assumed to have existed.

[Din X]

I understand the weight difference between the metals.

What do you think the possible weight range would be for the dougsmit example when it was new? How much gold would be needed to cover all the silver that can be seen on the coin now? I don't think .2 grams would do it. I think that fourree was overweight when it was new. While perhaps not the norm, I think the dougsmit fourree proves that an ancient fourree solidus of 4.92 grams can be assumed to have existed.

No way the weight is supposed to be 2 grams less than normal, normal is about 4,5g.
So the coin would have lost about half of its weight but the Gold plating is only removed on the highest spots.
If the coin would be of pure metal and would have only 50% of its weight it would have of course only 50% of its thickness.
The less weight of 2g has to be seen in realation to the wear and the wear does maybe explain 1 g weight loss.
So it had unerweight from the beginning.

[Kevin D]

No way the weight is supposed to be 2 grams less than normal, normal is about 4,5g.
So the coin would have lost about half of its weight but the Gold plating is only removed on the highest spots.
If the coin would be of pure metal and would have only 50% of its weight it would have of course only 50% of its thickness.
The less weight of 2g has to be seen in realation to the wear and the wear does maybe explain 1 g weight loss.
So it had unerweight from the beginning.

.2 grams, not 2 grams. An easy misread to make (everyone does it from time to time).

The dougsmit ancient fourree, even with the wear, is "only about .2g lighter than normal."

I agree with your assessment: "...the wear does maybe explain 1 g weight loss."

This indicates a possible fourree solidus weight of up to 5 grams or a bit more when new.

[Din X]

I assume the . infront of 2 is a typing error especially because there is no 0 before the dot.
That they used much more (1g) of precious Silver for such an ancient counterfeit does not really make sense.
They wanted to make profit and too high weight is less profit and higher chance that the counterfeit will be recognized so it doesn´t make sense.
dougsmit  "It is slightly thicker than normal"
If the size and thickness (= same volume) of this Silver plated coin is about identical to a coin from pure Silver than this is against the laws of physics, the Density of Gold is about  19.30 g/cm3 and Silver 10,49 g/cm³.
Gold and Silver coins can not have the same size + thickness (=volume) to weight realation.
Density = mass (weight) divided through volume (here size and thickness)
The Gold plated fake with Silver core must be about 2 times as thick or hugh or a combination of both, even more if the coin must have had 1g overweight.
This is why forgers in modern times use Tungsten with similar density as Gold and so very similar relation between weight to volume.
I have fake Gold bars from ebay (they are Copper Gold plated), they are much to thick because of about twice as high density of Gold to Copper!
Everyone can try it, search for coins made of pure Gold, Silver and Copper with the same weight and look for their volume (size and thickness).
But if dougsmit meant 2g and not 0.2g than it could be physicall possible.

[Mario D]

I would like to thank everyone for the comments so far. I have added another scan of the edge of the coin. I also measured the thickness which is 1.25mm at the center and goes down to about 1.1mm at the edges. I am also surprised no one commented on the blundered obverse legend. It seems to me that if the coin was a modern copy of a bronze nummus it would not have a blundered legend. I have also measured the gold fineness at between 18 and 22 K. The coin is totally non magnetic and if it has a silver core it would be much lighter than 4.9gm. So, I think it is a modern fake with the legend copied from a nummus which may not have had a complete or correct legend.

[Kevin D]

I assume the . infront of 2 is a typing error especially because there is no 0 before the dot.

I agree that this is often, if not always, expressed as 0.2 and so .2 might be considered a typo error. If Doug's coin had lost 2 grams, it would be approaching half of its weight (of the "normal" 4.5 grams), and in that case I believe Doug would not have used the word "only" - "only about .2g lighter than normal." I believe Doug means 0.2 grams.

Maybe Doug will stop by this thread and clarify for us.

[Kevin D]

I would like to thank everyone for the comments so far. I have added another scan of the edge of the coin. I also measured the thickness which is 1.25mm at the center and goes down to about 1.1mm at the edges. I am also surprised no one commented on the blundered obverse legend. It seems to me that if the coin was a modern copy of a bronze nummus it would not have a blundered legend. I have also measured the gold fineness at between 18 and 22 K. The coin is totally non magnetic and if it has a silver core it would be much lighter than 4.9gm. So, I think it is a modern fake with the legend copied from a nummus which may not have had a complete or correct legend.

Portable Antiquities Scheme
https://finds.org.uk/romancoins/denominations/denomination/id/33

This Portable Antiquities Scheme website reports the mean diameter of solidi to be 1.17mm. Perhaps this points to your coin (at 1.25mm to 1.1mm thickness) whether modern or ancient, being solid, rather than platted.

The data for the solidi on the Portable Antiquities Scheme website shows the maximum weight registered for the many examples they have recorded to be 5.38 grams. I wonder what that high weight piece is. Could it be an ancient platted forgery like the one Doug has reported (but without the wear seen on Doug's fourree)?

I see your coin as being a copy of a solidus, rather than a bronze nummus.

If my understanding of Doug's report is correct, and his worn fourree solidus is only 0.2 grams lighter than normal (normal being 4.5 grams) then his fourree solidus is an example that has a silver core and likely weighed in the same range as yours when it was new (something markedly above 4.5 grams).

[Hydatius]

The data for the solidi on the Portable Antiquities Scheme website shows the maximum weight registered for the many examples they have recorded to be 5.38 grams. I wonder what that high weight piece is. Could it be an ancient platted forgery like the one Doug has reported (but without the wear seen on Doug's fourree)?

The PAS weight is wrong. Any 'solidus' that weighs 5.38 g isn't a solidus, it's an aureus. And if it's late, it's known as a Festaureus, a specially minted coin intended as a donative for some special occasion. And when dealing with a solidus, 0.2 of a gram is a lot. I've never seen a solidus weigh more than about 4.52 g.

  Richard

[Kevin D]

The data for the solidi on the Portable Antiquities Scheme website shows the maximum weight registered for the many examples they have recorded to be 5.38 grams. I wonder what that high weight piece is. Could it be an ancient platted forgery like the one Doug has reported (but without the wear seen on Doug's fourree)?

The PAS weight is wrong. Any 'solidus' that weighs 5.38 g isn't a solidus, it's an aureus. And if it's late, it's known as a Festaureus, a specially minted coin intended as a donative for some special occasion. And when dealing with a solidus, 0.2 of a gram is a lot. I've never seen a solidus weigh more than about 4.52 g.

  Richard

The PAS website gives this disclaimer:
"Statistics for coins recorded - This will possibly highlight a lot of mistakes in data entry."

From the CNG website:

A genuine Constantine I solidus of 4.92 grams, sold in 2019 and listed as a solidus in RIC:
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=392099
Is there a known genuine solidus-aureus of this weight for Helena?

Constantius II, genuine solidus at 4.67 grams.
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=393517
A robust solidus or anemic aureus?

An ancient solidus [aureus?] fourree with a base core, weighing 4.93 grams.
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=390868
This fourree obviously would have weighed more than 5.00 grams when new.

[Kevin D]

I assume the . infront of 2 is a typing error especially because there is no 0 before the dot.

I agree that this is often, if not always, expressed as 0.2 and so .2 might be considered a typo error. If Doug's coin had lost 2 grams, it would be approaching half of its weight (of the "normal" 4.5 grams), and in that case I believe Doug would not have used the word "only" - "only about .2g lighter than normal." I believe Doug means 0.2 grams.

Maybe Doug will stop by this thread and clarify for us.

Doug responded to a personal email I sent and he reports that the weight of his solidus fourree is 4.21 grams.

Doug's article and images for his fourree can be seen on the Coin Talk website via this link:
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancients-baltimore-show-report-fourree-solidus.244879/

[Kevin D]

I do not like the coin the incomplete dotted border is very suspicious but the style is not completely off and so it could be a transfer die fake or recut transfer die fake copied from one of the  Æ Nummi from Antioch.

I would like to thank everyone for the comments so far. I have added another scan of the edge of the coin. I also measured the thickness which is 1.25mm at the center and goes down to about 1.1mm at the edges. I am also surprised no one commented on the blundered obverse legend. It seems to me that if the coin was a modern copy of a bronze nummus it would not have a blundered legend. I have also measured the gold fineness at between 18 and 22 K. The coin is totally non magnetic and if it has a silver core it would be much lighter than 4.9gm. So, I think it is a modern fake with the legend copied from a nummus which may not have had a complete or correct legend.

I see your coin as being a copy of a solidus, rather than a bronze nummus.

I retract my above quoted statement, it was made in error.

A copy from an AE nummus certainly does seem possible.