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Author Topic: Attribution help - late hyperpyron  (Read 2572 times)

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Offline Obryzum

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Attribution help - late hyperpyron
« on: November 01, 2010, 08:59:25 pm »
Coin was sold as S. 2461 Andronicus II & Andronicus III, but might it really be S.2526 John V and John VI?  The legend on the left seems to read  :Greek_Iota: :Greek_omega_small: :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Nu: -- but as with most of these is poorly engraved.  To my eyes it lacks the  :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Nu: :Greek_Delta: mismash that you usually find on the coins of Andronicus.  Making matters more difficult, the sigla does not seem to match any of the AndII-AndIII or JohnV-JohnVI sigla in DOCWeight is high at 5.1.  Any thoughts?


Offline byzcoll

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Re: Attribution help - late hyperpyron
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2010, 08:03:50 am »
Hi,

the typical inscription on Sear 2526 is  :Greek_Iota: :Greek_omega_small: :Greek_Iota: :Greek_Nu: :Greek_Chi: :Greek_Omicron:  (for Iohannes in Christo...).
This fits very well to the inscription on your coin as far as I can see (The  :Greek_omega_small: often looks more like :U:)

The sigla are a puzzle. Could that be a  :gammareversed: on the left?      :gammareversed: -   :Greek_Gamma:  occurs on Sear 2526.

Are you sure about the 5.1 g? Have you weighed the coin yourself? Such a heavy weight would be very disturbing...  I once bought a Romanus III histamenon which was advertised as 4.73 g. It actually was at 4.37g on my balance.

If this is a real John VI hyperpyron, then it isa very nice catch!

byzcoll

Offline glebe

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Re: Attribution help - late hyperpyron
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2010, 04:29:10 pm »
Yes, this is very likely S.2526. The siglum is Pi - something, as on Bendall's (new) Type M (not in DOC). The weight is heavy, but there are some other heavy 2526's - or it was a mistake.
Lanz also offered two days earlier a variant of Type S (DOC Type 6) as S.2396:

[LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

I was the underbidder on both. I could have bid more but I'm sure I would have been outbid - the buyer of both bid once and late and obviously knew what he was doing.


Ross G.



Offline Obryzum

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Re: Attribution help - late hyperpyron
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2010, 09:04:50 pm »
byzcoll and Ross, thanks for your comments.  Ross, I saw your new article on the John V-John VI hyperpyra, and I thought it was very helpful.  I am trying to track down a copy of the Bendall's 2004 article in Numismatic Circular.  Meanwhile, the chart is great.

I won the coin I posted.  I saw the other one you posted but I was not as certain, and I never bid.  I was reluctant to second guess Lanz on both of them.  Obviously I took some comfort in the fact that other bidders seemed to reach the same conclusion I did.  I bid late, but still four hours before the auction closed -- I was interested in the coin, but not interested enough to stay up until 3 a.m. (in my time zone) to see the finish.  I guess that means there were at least three sets of eyeballs that reached the same conclusion. 

Offline glebe

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Re: Attribution help - late hyperpyron
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2010, 09:45:53 pm »
So - maybe I should have bid higher on the other one after all (I thought they both went to same bidder, but I see they didn't).
It's odd that Lanz didn't list these as 2526, since they have listed several Type L's as John V & VI in their sales, and Types L and M are very similar, and in fact are die linked on several examples (as is Type N - I suspect they're all one type).
But maybe they didn't notice the links (and I'm not going to tell them).
You won't find much more in Bendall's article, but the 2004 volume of Num. Circ. is worth having anyway for several other articles by Bendall on various late Byzantine topics.

Ross G.

Offline Obryzum

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Re: Attribution help - late hyperpyron
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2010, 10:48:02 pm »
Ross,  I am curious whether you think it is possible that there were ever any hyperpyra of John V and Andronicus IV. 

John VI retired to monastic life in 1354.  I think Hendy argued that the stavraton appeared about 1367.  If that date is correct, and if there were no hyperpyra after John VI's retirement, that would leave 13 years without a flagship currency.  Perhaps the John V-John VI issues continued to be minted after his retirement?  It would seem there are at least the following 5 possibilities:

(1) No gold coins minted 1354-1367
(2) Coins of John V-John VI were minted after John VI's retirement until the introduction of the stavraton
(3) Coins of John V-Andronicus IV were minted after John VI's retirement but have not yet been identified
(4) Gold coins of John V (alone) were minted after John VI's retirement (but this possibility is remote because it would require a new design and no such coins have been found to date)
(5) The stavraton may have been introduced earlier than 1367. 

I am very curious about possibility #3.  Andronicus was associated as a co-emperor sometime in the 1350s, but did not play much of a role until the rebellion in 1373.  And of course he appeared on the stavraton after the rebellion. 

It would seem that it is at least theoretically possible that such coins may have existed unless there are good historical sources that definitively say that the last gold coins were minted during the John V-John VI joint reign.  But considering that these coins were not even found until the 1960s, and then only because someone finally made out one of the legends, it seems that it could be possible . . . .

What do you think? 

(This is a question not only for Ross, but anyone who has ideas on the subject).

Offline glebe

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Re: Attribution help - late hyperpyron
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2010, 03:53:31 am »
Interesting idea. The thing to do is check late hypers for something like the name "Andronik" on the right hand side.
I checked all the John V & VI types in my files and couldn't find anything like this.
I also checked all the "Avtokratores Romaion" types of Andr. II & Mich. IX, but they all seem to be kosher.
Another possibility is that some of the rarer types attributed to Andron. II & III are actually John V and Andron. IV, but I found nothing convincing there either (but see below).
A single ruler type of John V in the style of Andron. II alone would presumably be pretty obvious.
Given that there are actually quite a few John V and VI hypers floating around, if these types were also issued in the name of John V and Andron. IV (or John V alone) I think we would have expected to see some by now, and so I have to doubt they exist.
Perhaps the currency was based on silver in the period before the stavrata, but none of the basilica in John's name seem to be belong here (they all have Anna on them).
There is of course the famous gold florin in the BN, but most people think that is a fake, and it's hard to take it seriously without more examples.
Finally, note the interesting type assigned to Andr. II and III with siglum 12. On recent examples of this, like those shown below, there is a beardless junior ruler on the right, and Bendall suggests (in Num. Circ. 2004 in fact) that this is possibly an issue of Andronicus III and John V (on the basis of a doubtful reading of the legends on the GM coin).
Could the junior ruler perhaps be Andron. IV? Don't know - but the legends on the NAC 51 coin (which Bendall hadn't seen) look more like John and John to me.
Hmmm - I'm not sure I understand all that, but I hope it helps.

Ross G.

Offline byzcoll

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Re: Attribution help - late hyperpyron
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2010, 10:10:21 am »
Dear Glebe,

I agree that the NAC 51 coin has the legends of John & John.

I have not seen the new comprehensive analysis and the classification system, yet. Where can I find it? Can that be downloaded somewhere?

There have been a couple of interesting late hyperpyra in recent auctions, indeed, but I always have been outbid, I think, also sometimes by you.  ;)

byzcoll

Offline Orthodoxcoins

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Re: Attribution help - late hyperpyron
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2010, 12:38:38 pm »
Quote from: Obryzum on November 02, 2010, 10:48:02 pm
Ross,  I am curious whether you think it is possible that there were ever any hyperpyra of John V and Andronicus IV. 

John VI retired to monastic life in 1354.  I think Hendy argued that the stavraton appeared about 1367.  If that date is correct, and if there were no hyperpyra after John VI's retirement, that would leave 13 years without a flagship currency.  Perhaps the John V-John VI issues continued to be minted after his retirement?  It would seem there are at least the following 5 possibilities:

(1) No gold coins minted 1354-1367
(2) Coins of John V-John VI were minted after John VI's retirement until the introduction of the stavraton

(This is a question not only for Ross, but anyone who has ideas on the subjec






(6) 1341 - 1347 and 1355 - 1367 -   hyperpyron type of Andronicus III /S. 2466/ with John V and Anna have been minted? ! ? ! ? !
http://www.orthodoxcoins.com
Catalogue of the Late Byzantine Coins

Offline glebe

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Re: Attribution help - late hyperpyron
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2010, 04:41:37 pm »
Dear Glebe,

I agree that the NAC 51 coin has the legends of John & John.

I have not seen the new comprehensive analysis and the classification system, yet. Where can I find it? Can that be downloaded somewhere?

There have been a couple of interesting late hyperpyra in recent auctions, indeed, but I always have been outbid, I think, also sometimes by you.  ;)

byzcoll

I have summarised Bendall's new sheme on my webpage:

http://www.glebecoins.net/paleos/Articles/The_Hyperpyra_of_John_V___John/the_hyperpyra_of_john_v___john.html

Actually, I've been outbid on the late types too - have only bought one hyper recently and that was an ordinary S.2396 from Thessalonica.

Ross G.




Offline Obryzum

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Re: Attribution help - late hyperpyron
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2010, 04:03:37 am »
Quote from: Orthodoxcoins on November 03, 2010, 12:38:38 pm
(6) 1341 - 1347 and 1355 - 1367 -   hyperpyron type of Andronicus III /S. 2466/ with John V and Anna have been minted? ! ? ! ? ![/b]

I had never thought of that.  I suppose itis a theoretical possibility to consider, but I think it is even less likely that an undiscovered John V sole reign might be out there.  The reason is that the coin with Anna of Savoy is understood to be a coin of the regency (if even properly attributed to the reign of John V rather than Andronicus III).  The regency ended in the early part of John V's reign, so there would be no reason for Anna to reappear on the coins from 1354 to 1367.  In fact, Anna was not even in Constantinople at the time -- I think she was in Thessalonica until her death around 1360 (which would still leave a 7 year gap from 1360 to 1367).   


Offline byzcoll

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Re: Attribution help - late hyperpyron
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2010, 03:42:42 pm »

 

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