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Author Topic: A Nice BCD Coin  (Read 2273 times)

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Offline Andrew McCabe

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A Nice BCD Coin
« on: April 13, 2012, 12:28:15 am »
Here is a perfect example of why not to restrict yourself by condition: The following coin has a simply unbelievably high quality provenance.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=870&zpg=62883

It was found at Krannon, its actual mint site, a very rare example of a provenance in the ground from a coins place of origin.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=krannon+thessaly
http://odysseus.culture.gr/h/3/eh3530.jsp?obj_id=2435
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krannonas

It was owned and catalogued by one of the most famous collectors of Greek coins, "BCD", and has his catalogue reference where you can look up this actual example (BCD Thessaly 1081.1), and comes with his handwritten tag. It also dates from the high classical period of Greek civilisation, the time of Pericles and such luminaries

$27 in the Forum shop

BB49837. Bronze dichalkon, cf. Rogers 179 ff.; BCD Thessaly 1081.1; SNG Cop 39 - 40; BMC Thessaly p. 17, 7; SCGV 2075 (all various ethnic arrangements), aF, Krannon mint, weight 3.236g, maximum diameter 18.2mm, die axis 180o, obverse laureate head of Poseidon right; reverse ĪšĪ”āˆ’Ī‘ (or similar), horseman galloping right, wearing petasos and chlamys, trident below; nice green patina, ex BCD collection with his handwritten round tag; $27.00.

This is a TOTALLY INCREDIBLE COIN. Who would choose a GVF bronze of Constantine when you could collect this. I would be passionate about collecting these sort of coins.

I could as easily have exampled a Byzantine, an early Imperial or Celtic coin. All are good. As are late Romans for some. So I would advise to start with a representative collection as suggested in my earlier note, and choose very carefully. You could do worse than starting with this terrific little coin.

PS: do not buy on eBay. This is advice from an old professional. You will never get fully attributed, provenanced genuine coins of the quality of this little Greek bronze on eBay. You may buy fakes or altered coins. You may buy moderate quality unprovenanced common genuine coins, but all the really good examples will be snapped up by real experts. The junk, fakes and toolies are what get sold to beginner collectors.

PPS. do not buy on eBay. Buying on eBay is like gambling with three card tricksters. They've been distracting attention with their three cards for decades and know well how to deceive new collectors into buying a hopelessly tooled bronze or a worthless fake or a badly photographed, overhyped and completely overpriced late Roman bronze. Do you think your expertise is a match for them? Really??? I doubt it.

PPPS. in case you missed my point, avoid eBay until you have acquired a very high level of expertise.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2012, 12:43:46 am »
The more I read about Krannon and the more I look at this $27 coin, the more tempted I am to throw all my Roman Republicans away and buy this coin. It seems from the Odysseus website that finds in the area - which included this little coin - can be securely dated to the fifth or fourth century BC:

Tholos tomb B: Based on the pottery findings, the tomb is dated to the first half of the fifth century BC.

Pyramidal tomb of Krannona: is distinguished for its architectural structure and its painted decoration, which secures dating to the fourth century BC.

Pyramidal tomb A: individual morphology elements permit dating to the early fourth century BC.

Someone, please dig out $27 and some postage and relieve me of the burden of worrying about this coin going to a good home!

Offline Steve E

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2012, 02:35:44 am »
Here's some new collector questions!

Who is/was BCD? What's his real name? :-[

~Steve

Edit; I got the word through PM, he wants to remain anonymous :angel:

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2012, 03:07:39 am »
Who is/was BCD? What's his real name? :-[

The brother of ABC?  :)  No, the open secret ...http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v09n32a11.html

BCD = Basil C. Demetriadi who assembled the largest collection of mainland Greek coins in the 20th century.  The collection, totalling in excess of twenty thousand coins, was dispersed via auctions and sales over a period of eight years commencing 2004. His identity is readily available including photos in various ANS newsletters and website and he has published articles on mainland Greek coins and is frequently acknowledged as a source of material in many scholarly articles. So its no no secret for anyone who is informed of the mainland Greek series or who has been involved in the mainland Greek numismatic trade over the last few decades.

So lets cut with the secrecy and anonymity bs. Refer following photo from the Fall 1996 ANS Newsletter.... Caption : Guests from Europe: ANS Fellow Basil Demetriadi from Athens, Hubert Lanz from Munich and Michel Amandry, Director of the Coin Cabinet of the BibliothĆØque Nationale in Paris

Like most things in the trade the identification by initials started as a marketing ploy rather than an anonymity concern, the attempt to add aura and mystery to a sale. From acronyms the trade moved to geographic monikers (e.g. White Mountain Collection) then to more obscure designators (e.g. Dante Aligihieri) collection and most recently to cabinet designations (e.g. Cabinet W collection).... all are marketing ploys and nothing more. I prefer the good old days when collectors like Pozzi, Gulbenkian etc  were openly acknowledged when their collections were dispersed.  No doubt the wheel will turn back to clear identifiable provenance by name as more value than initials, cabinet and vague obscure references, because it will be essential to the proof of legality of the coin/product in the sale process... clear, transparent, and well documented provenance will be paramount as antiquities trade restrictions tighten.


Offline Steve E

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2012, 03:35:22 am »
Thanks Lloyd!

After Andrew's fine sales pitch ;) I thought I would add one of Joe's coins from BCD to my collection, but I really wanted to know more about the collector before I did. Next paycheck, I will ;)

~Steve

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2012, 03:50:07 am »
After Andrew's fine sales pitch ;) I thought I would add one of Joe's coins from BCD to my collection, but I really wanted to know more about the collector before I did. Next paycheck, I will ;)

I have about forty BCD provenanced coins in my collection.  BCD really knew/knows his stuff and has provided some real insights to the mainland Greek series in the notes accompanying the dispersal of his collection in various auction catalogues as well as his scholarly output.  One of the greatest collectors and numismatists of the late twentieth century in my opinion and he deserves more than the anonymity conferred on him as a marketing ploy! So step into the spotlight BCD and receive the accolades which you richly deserve.

Offline Victor C

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2012, 09:11:28 am »
Who would choose a GVF bronze of Constantine when you could collect this.

I would choose the Constantine coin.
Victor Clark

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Offline ickster

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2012, 12:49:46 am »

Someone, please dig out $27 and some postage and relieve me of the burden of worrying about this coin going to a good home!

You convinced me. I needed to get some archival flips anyway. No sense just having one item in the shipment.  :)

I do like these early period coins.

Offline Steve E

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2012, 02:07:13 am »

Someone, please dig out $27 and some postage and relieve me of the burden of worrying about this coin going to a good home!

You convinced me. I needed to get some archival flips anyway. No sense just having one item in the shipment.  :)

I do like these early period coins.

Quote from me earlier in this thread;

"After Andrew's fine sales pitch I thought I would add one of Joe's coins from BCD to my collection,"

 ;D ;D ;D


~Steve

Offline ickster

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2012, 02:28:51 am »
Oh no!  :o I didn't think you meant this particular one. The "one of Joe's coins from the BCD collection" led me to believe you were thinking of one of the others.  Joe's not back until Monday (spring break, his notification says), so PM me if you want me to ixnay the transaction and leave it for you.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2012, 04:06:52 am »
Oh no!  :o I didn't think you meant this particular one. The "one of Joe's coins from the BCD collection" led me to believe you were thinking of one of the others.  Joe's not back until Monday (spring break, his notification says), so PM me if you want me to ixnay the transaction and leave it for you.

You should hang on to it, you pressed the button first so clearly Steve is less keen on it. The fact that this coin was found on site, and that the site is securely dated through non-numismatic means, is the cherry on the cream for this coin. You may not yet appreciate the importance of this but when you pick up this coin in maybe 20 years time, and your collection by then numbers 2,000 pieces, it will probably still be the only piece in your collection that has a datable site provenance to its mint location. I have no such coins. Its not even the equivalent of owning a coin from the pre-destruction era of Morgantina, or with a secure Pompeii provenance, but more stumbling on a wolf and twins didrachm among the stones of the temple of Juno Moneta in Rome. Well OK I am exaggerating but it's $27!

I also have a question about Celtic coins - it seems like they are obscure or hard to find.  Or just not that desirable?  Is it true that people don't really like Celtic coins and prefer Greek, Roman, Byzantine?  It seems like on the ancient coins forum the section for Celtic coins has very few posts in contrast to the Greek, Roman or Byzantine Empire forums.  Does that makes Celtic coins a strange investment, like hard to sell because not that many people want them?

I have no idea of an answer on any of these questions which is perhaps the point. Complete ignorance. What I have seen however is the Celtic coins tend to be collected passionately and with specialist focus by those in the country where they were made. So there are hosts of keeen collectors in England ifor Celtic coins. They turn up in local excavations and metal detector finds, they reveal the course of that country's history rather than of Rome or Greece, and they often have a relation to the development of artistic forms in those countries at that time. So you may not see much Celtic coin chatter on this list but you also don't see a lot of chatter about Sceattas and Anglo Saxon pennies or about the pre-invasion coinage of England.  Much the same reasons. Yet all those are wildly popular areas. Especially Anglo Saxon pennies which often fetch many thousands of pounds.

Offline Steve E

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2012, 05:11:25 am »
Oh no!  :o I didn't think you meant this particular one. The "one of Joe's coins from the BCD collection" led me to believe you were thinking of one of the others.  Joe's not back until Monday (spring break, his notification says), so PM me if you want me to ixnay the transaction and leave it for you.

Don't worry, I wasn't speaking of this particular coin ;) Just any BCD. I was just commenting on how adept Andrew was in his salesmanship ;) It had the same effect on me!

I agree with him that this is quite a nice find for the price, perhaps many times the price! Not only does the provenance add value, but the historical connection related to it's mint and find location, make it quite collectable!

Andrew's historical knowledge, as well as so many others on this forum, add much interest and value to so many coins, that might seem to others as ordinary. Its one of the aspects of this hobby that I find so enjoyable!

Please enjoy your new addition! I've definately enjoyed and learned alot from this discussion :)

Best Regards!
Steve

Offline Steve E

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2012, 07:24:00 am »
Another point that can be made regarding this "spotlighted" coin, that I think relates back to the original topic of this thread " New Collector Question";
As a fairly new collector myself, I find it extraordinary that a coin with this amount of wear, apparently from decades of circulation, would be found so close to it's place of origin! My uneducated expectation would be a coin of much less wear, dropped or hoarded early on in it's life, to be much more likely.
I realize that other factors, such as die wear, weak striking, and corrosion, could make this coin seem more circulated than it was. And of course, who knows, this coin may have traveled all around the known world many times, only to end up back to it's home. Which would also seem extraordinary to me!

I imagine there have been studies of circulation wear and distribution patterns of coins similar to this, that might shed some light on the question.

Any comments on this point?

~Steve

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2012, 07:32:35 am »
As a fairly new collector myself, I find it extraordinary that a coin with this amount of wear, apparently from decades of circulation, would be found so close to it's place of origin! My uneducated expectation would be a coin of much less wear, dropped or hoarded early on in it's life, to be much more likely.
I realize that other factors, such as die wear, weak striking, and corrosion, could make this coin seem more circulated than it was. And of course, who knows, this coin may have traveled all around the known world many times, only to end up back to it's home. Which would also seem extraordinary to me!

Excellent, intelligent question.

I don't have an absolute answer but I have a reasonable suggestion. It seems to have been a general rule in the ancient world prior to Roman colonisation that local civic bronze coins did not circulate to any great extent outside their own city (or region in the case of regional bronze standards, such as in Spain). One reason may have been that they were fiscal / token currencies so required local authority to make them valid. Another reasons may have been the sheer inconvenience of lugging around bronze coins in an era with relatively little travel - they just did not disperse. Another reason may have been that the bronzes did not get into the pay packets of mercenaries / soldiers, who seem to have been a key dispersal mechanism, nor were they exchanged at ports for imported goods. Another reason may have been the sheer uncertainty as how to value a bronze you did not recognise. etc etc.

If you find it tough to identify and put a face value on an obscure Greek bronze, consider that the Greeks might not have had reliable access to acsearch.info because their iPads didnt work because Zeus had a monopoly control over electricity supply. Such knowledge barriers might be a significant impediment to circulation.

Offline Steve E

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2012, 08:11:46 am »
As a fairly new collector myself, I find it extraordinary that a coin with this amount of wear, apparently from decades of circulation, would be found so close to it's place of origin! My uneducated expectation would be a coin of much less wear, dropped or hoarded early on in it's life, to be much more likely.
I realize that other factors, such as die wear, weak striking, and corrosion, could make this coin seem more circulated than it was. And of course, who knows, this coin may have traveled all around the known world many times, only to end up back to it's home. Which would also seem extraordinary to me!

Excellent, intelligent question.

I don't have an absolute answer but I have a reasonable suggestion. It seems to have been a general rule in the ancient world prior to Roman colonisation that local civic bronze coins did not circulate to any great extent outside their own city (or region in the case of regional bronze standards, such as in Spain). One reason may have been that they were fiscal / token currencies so required local authority to make them valid. Another reasons may have been the sheer inconvenience of lugging around bronze coins in an era with relatively little travel - they just did not disperse. Another reason may have been that the bronzes did not get into the pay packets of mercenaries / soldiers, who seem to have been a key dispersal mechanism, nor were they exchanged at ports for imported goods. Another reason may have been the sheer uncertainty as how to value a bronze you did not recognise. etc etc.
That is a very reasonable suggestion, Thanks! I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it difficult, sometimes, to relate my own "modern day" experience, with those of the ancient world. Maybe after I've walked a few more miles in their sandels :)

If you find it tough to identify and put a face value on an obscure Greek bronze, consider that the Greeks might not have had reliable access to acsearch.info because their iPads didnt work because Zeus had a monopoly control over electricity supply. Such knowledge barriers might be a significant impediment to circulation.
Or even a site like Forvm Current Coins ;D ;D ;D

~Steve

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2012, 08:24:42 am »
That is a very reasonable suggestion, Thanks! I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it difficult, sometimes, to relate my own "modern day" experience, with those of the ancient world. Maybe after I've walked a few more miles in their sandels :)

Actually the same process works today. So here's a test for everyone on list who lives in the euro zone. Take out your pocket change, now, and look at it. If there are bronze coins (5c, 2c, 1c) in the change, see where they originate from. There is a very high chance that they are from your country of residence - they have not circulated to any great extent. Now look at the highest denomination in your loose change - the 1 or 2 euro coins. I suspect they are from all over the place. Believe me I've tested this 50 times with my own handfuls of small change and more than 80% of the time the bronzes are all or predominantly from your home country whilst the euro coins are as often as not from somewhere else. What causes this? Well when you get an airplane flight, you probably tidy up your pockets a bit (advance prep for the scanner ordeals) and that process probably includes only taking the higher value coins with you; the bronzes get left for the penny jar at home. Same process the ancients would have likely followed.

Offline Mark Z

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2012, 10:37:12 am »
Dear Friend Steve,

When I first became interested in ancient history, I, too, had a hard time trying to grasp what might have happened 2000 years ago.

However, I remembered something that a guy told me way back in college (the first time around). Here it is:

"Things change but people don't."

Once you have that concept firmly fixed in your mind, it makes it really easy to picture how people acted in the ancient world...The same way we do!

As a result, it takes Andrew's short discourse on a person's habits from supremely insightful to sublime :)

 :reversedQ: :Greek_epsilon: :Greek_Delta:

mz

Offline Steve E

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2012, 02:26:46 pm »
Thanks Andrew and Mark for helping me to think more critically and see the similarities of people from modern and ancient times! People really haven't changed that much ;)

Andrew, the experiment you suggest, I think produces much more vivid results for you in Europe , than for me in the US. Where we only have one bronze coin, and it, from only two mints! It's true, by far the vast majority of circulating small change is found from the closest of the two mints. Denver, for me now living in the West, or Philadelphia back when I lived in the East, probablly greater than 90%. I have noticed though, after a coin has circulated for several decades, say 5 to 7, that % gets alot closer to even money, as they say :)

Also, the vast majority of foreign coins are found in the smallest denoms. Mostly Canadian pennies, with an occasional coin from Mexico or the carribean, or S. America. very seldom from Europe or other areas. I don't recall ever seeing a foreign coin above the 25 cent denom. in pocket change. This may be explained because you very seldom see anything in US coins above 25 cents. I may have seen 1/2 a dozen 50 cent pieces in the last year in change. Because of the new US dollar coin, they seem to be showing up a little more frequently, but not too much. ( this may be different if I lived in Las Vegas or worked in the vending industry ;) ). Since all these foreign coins are not considered legal tender by the banks, I'm sure most are filtered out of circulation fairly quickly. So a true representative sample would be hard to show with these anyway.

My experience may not be typical since, much to my great dismay. I am not well travelled :'( I rarely get more than a days travel away from home, and it's been over 10 years since I've been out of the country :'( And then, only to the Bahamas. I've never travelled outside North America :'( Maybe someday :angel:

I hope all this hasn't been boring chatter ::) Though I think, critical thinking and experimentation is the basis for all scientific and historical study, and appropriate for a discussion for new collectors :angel:

Cheers!
Steve

Offline Steve E

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2012, 02:28:59 pm »
Thanks Lucas for reigning me in :) I do tend to ramble!

Edit; Ditto on Doug Smith's site!!! That is how I got started and how I found this site :) Very informative!!!

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2012, 06:46:19 am »
Thanks Andrew and Mark for helping me to think more critically and see the similarities of people from modern and ancient times! People really haven't changed that much ;)

Yes - and another great fallacy is the assumption that hoards are representative of the mix of coins in circulation at the time. Step forward to an example from modern times.

Imagine a catastrophic accident above a safe-deposit vault that rendered it inaccessible for 1,000 years. In 3012 some keen archaeologists excavate it and find many boxes containing bank notes. They tell everyone in the archaeological newspapers of the future that the typical mix of circulating currency in the USA in 2012 consisted of crisp, apparently freshly printed, $100 bills, of a range of dates from around 1990 to 2011. They would find this peculiar and conclude that there was a "value premium" attached to freshly printed $100 bills (as against smaller denominations, or worn notes).

Back to the present. A hoard is excavated and is seen to contain freshly minted good-weight denarii whose dates range from say 80 BC to 60 BC. Even the older coins are fresh and heavy. An archaeologist today concludes that there was a "value premium" attached to freshly minted heavier denarii (as against lighter coins, or worn coins), and therefore that coins circulated by weight rather than face value.

Of course that's complete nonsense. Five grubby $20's still match a crisp $100 in Walmart. A worn old light weight denarius would still have matched a freshly minted heavy denarius in the marketplace of 60 BC. But when filling a hoard container, or a modern safe deposit box, it's just natural to select the fresh brightest smartest heaviest coins/banknotes even if they are not worth a cent/uncia more in the market place of that day. And as for the date range (80 to 60 BC, or 1990 to 2011) that's indicative of a deposition hoard where contents are added gradually over time, rather than a hoard that reflects the circulation mix of the end date.

Thinking of modern analogies is often very helpful.

Offline PeterD

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2012, 11:53:43 am »
Andrew - I'm not sure I follow your logic. Your archaeologists of 3012 would surely conclude that the banknotes represented what was in circulation, since banknotes have no intrinsic value and they were all marked $100. If they still had banknotes or coins at that time (or even if they didn't) they would surely realise that fresh, worn, old or new currency would happily circulate together.

I don't think anyone has proposed, based on hoard evidence, that in the Roman era coins circulated by weight, have they? Carradice's work on Flavian coinage is instructive. He shows that Domitian's high quality denarius, issued 82-85 AD, rapidly disappears from hoards, whereas his later denarii, issued 85-86 AD, continued to appear in hoards in large quantities until the time of Septimius Severus. We must surely assume that the 'good' coins also disappeared from circulation for good, or else they would have gone back into later hoards. A bit of a chicken and egg question, but I think that hoards did mirror what was in circulation.

I believe it is a mistake to think of hoarding as a one way journey for coins. We have that impression because the coins in hoards we find today obviously have never been returned to circulation  Using a modern analogy! businesses have bank accounts into which money flows in and out according to business cycles. Clearly we can never know what ancient hoards were used for, but a hoard which changed it's composition over time would mirror circulation.

Most British hoards of imperial Romans have coins that cover quite a long time period, sometimes over 100 years. Richard Abdy shows that the distribution of coins over time follows a skewed bell curve. Given that coins took some years to come into full circulation (twenty or thirty years sometimes in the case of Britain), the high point of the curve would be some years previous, a low point where the newest coins have only just come into circulation and a tapering low point where earlier coins are present but diminishing. Again this points the idea that composition of hoards followed what was in circulation. While hoarders may have been selective to a certain extent, the coinage was fiduciary so there was no actual profit in selecting 'good' coins, just a feel-good factor.

Peter, London

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Offline Enodia

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2012, 02:25:12 pm »
this makes much more sense, imo.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2012, 02:43:44 pm »
While hoarders may have been selective to a certain extent, the coinage was fiduciary so there was no actual profit in selecting 'good' coins, just a feel-good factor.

That was my exact point. 'Good' coins and 'crisp' $100 bills only give a feel-good factor. The coinage was fiduciary. I know. Face value is what mattered.

My comment was intended as a (miserably failed) joke at the uninformed analysts, armchair archaeologists and gossip merchants who sometimes speculate and extrapolate in silly ways, from an untypical isolated find to life in general.

I made the comment because many hoards contain material that is in one or other way untypical, whether in the selection of prettier or heavier coins, or in deposition patterns, or an unexpected coin (much too early, or too late, or wrong regime). Anytime anything odd turns up there's always someone who will use it to try and reframe our entire knowledge of the ancient world. Believe me this does happens.

I listened to a lecture not long ago by a Spanish expert who demonstrated, because of the lack of denarius coins in the finds of a site she believed to have been occupied until 209 BC, that therefore the first denarius must post-date 209 BC. That's the sort of crazy tunnel vision I was arguing against. Of course all that the lack of such coins shows is that perhaps her assumption about the site dating was wrong. She never mentioned in her lecture the 100+ pieces of solid evidence in many places showing denarius coins preceding 209 BC. She just looked at her single untypical piece of evidence and built a new story about world history around it. Please protect me from such experts (and others who argue that coins in the ancient world always circulated by weight on the basis of one or other untypical or mis-interpreted find).

Offline Equity

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2012, 04:18:54 pm »
On a related note, no doubt most of you are aware of this "law", or perhaps more accurately, an observation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law
I quote:
Gresham's law is an economic principle that states: "When a government compulsorily overvalues one type of money and undervalues another, the undervalued money will leave the country or disappear from circulation into hoards, while the overvalued money will flood into circulation."[1] It is commonly stated as: "Bad money drives out good", but is more accurately stated: "Bad money drives out good if their exchange rate is set by law."

which I think may be consistent with both PeterD and Andrew McCabe's observations. My "first order" extrapolation: if a hoard was created during a transitionary period following devaluation, it may well over-represent "good" money relative to the circulating distribution. Further into the period of debasement, fewer less-debased denarii would be available to the hoarder (also perhaps reflecting his/her socio-economic station and access to higher quality currency), so the hoard distribution would be more representative of circulating values. Of course, that's just a guess--I wonder if Peter or Andrew can comment as to supporting/refuting evidence? Of course, there are so many complicating factors, such as distance from the center of the world (i.e. Rome), whether the hoards were passed on through generations as a family reserve and many other scenarios one can imagineā€¦
Fascinating topic! I also wonder how many modern day hoards or equivalent (bank vaults) are being created with gold, given the hysteria over quantitative easing and the like, and how many hoards from ancient times were discovered containing bullion/jewelry rather than currency...
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: A Nice BCD Coin
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2012, 04:36:22 pm »
My "first order" extrapolation: if a hoard was created during a transitionary period following devaluation, it may well over-represent "good" money relative to the circulating distribution. Further into the period of debasement, fewer less-debased denarii would be available to the hoarder (also perhaps reflecting his/her socio-economic station and access to higher quality currency), so the hoard distribution would be more representative of circulating values. Of course, that's just a guess--I wonder if Peter or Andrew can comment as to supporting/refuting evidence?

I've no data on how the mind of a Roman worked but I'm pretty sure that any ancient Roman who had the time to put together a hoard containing coins of his choice would ALWAYS choose the nicer coins to hoard and the less nice ones to spend. That's human nature and is irrespective of whether the nicer coins had any higher value in the marketplace. He'd do it because one simply doesn't know for certain what the market may be like in years time when the coins are dug up. If it costs nothing to choose better coins of course one will always do it. At the very least he might do it just because the nicer coins look nicer to own and handle! That's the crisp-new-banknote analogy.

This requires no sophisticated knowledge of economic theory. Just a recognition of the ever unchanging nature of human behaviour.

It's also likely to apply irrespective of the period. Whether in stable Augustan times or the middle of the Second Punic war with its constant devaluations, if you have a choice about what to hoard, you'll always hang on to the nicest available coins and banknotes. Of course if you've no choice and need to bury your money in a rush, then you may throw into the pot some random items of silver or bronze jewelry too - all that you could not wear. Leading inevitably to modern uninformed analysts, armchair archaeologists and gossip merchants speculating as to whether bullion was accepted as currency.

This also requires no sophisticated knowledge of archaeological theory. Wherever a random and accidental ancient event has left a trace for today's archaeologists, there will always be someone who takes the random accident and builds a new picture of the ancient world around it.

 

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