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Author Topic: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike  (Read 1951 times)

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Offline Molinari

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In Nicola Ignarra's work The Wrestling School at Naples, he has a long section devoted to the identity of the man-faced bull, whom he says is always Acheloios.  In the plates he has a coin from Neapolis with the SUESA inscription appearing as the undertype, and judging from the footnote he devotes to the coin it seems that he was unsure what it was (or perhaps just the circumstances of when it was issued).  This is interesting because it is a very early scholarly engagement with overstrikes!

Here is the Latin and my horrible translation. I've bolded the section that seems to have the essence of the footnote, but I don't quite grasp its meaning.  Any help appreciated.  Attached also is the picture.

Ibi persipicue cusum apparet SVESA, primo fibilo dumtaxat superne evanido. Nummum contemplandum obtuli Domenico Baroni Ronchio, in re vetusta nummaria cum primis versatissimo: is autem negavit se umquam vidisse similem, nec quid de eo explicate diceret, habere. Conjecit tamen, quod et mihi etiam in mentem inciderat, Suesam tunc temporis in ditione suisse Neapolitanorum, a queis ut leges, sic monetam, qua uteretur, accepisse. Quamquam et illud etiam suspicari succurreret, societatem inter Neapolitanos et Seusano eo tempore intercessisse; eaque gratia Suesanos curasse, ut in moneta Neapolitana jam percussa, que et ipsi promiscue uterentur, vox Suesae incideretur. Nam hoc etiam contemplatione dignum est numisma, quod to Suesa non initio exaratum suit, sed alio tempore, et cuso jam numismatii, ibi ubi locus vacuus dabatur, impressum, uti nummum contrectani pater.

"There very clearly appears SVESA, with the first part disappearing above. I offered the coin to Domenico Baron Ronchio for consideration, one of the most thoroughly versed in ancient financial affairs; but he denied that he had ever seen something like this, nor did he explain what it meant. He conjectured, however, that what occurred to me also occurred to him, that [it was made] at that time Suessa was in the possession of the Neapolitans, from whom they received their laws and the money which they were using. And yet it occurred to him also to suspect that an alliance between the Neapolitans and Suessans had occurred at that time; and that by this grace he had taken care of the Suesani, that the word Suesa, which was already being struck in the Neapolitan coin, which they themselves might use indiscriminately, might be cut short. For this coin is also worthy of contemplation, which is not inscribed to Suessa at the beginning, but at another time, and now look to the coin, there, where the place was empty, is imprinted,  to firmly determine the coin's origin."

I'd eventually like to publish a translation of this footnote to accompany some commentary, and I'm happy collaborate (co-author) if someone wants to refine the Latin. My reading is that he thinks an inscription was added to a Neapolitan coin, rather than recognizing it as an overstrike.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2021, 01:44:38 pm »
Here are the sentences leading up to the footnote (which is footnote 35):

Tres de industria segli typos, ut causae, quam peroro, inserviam, appaeatque simul, per semibovis, bovisque notam unice ad Acheloum suisse spectatum, quo etiam Cornu Copiae collineat. Primus horum obvius est, sed inscriptione, quam in dorso bos barbatus gerit (35), oppido rarissimus.

Three types are deliberately chosen, so that I will serve as the cause, which I have concluded, and it will appear at the same time that he has smothered the brand of half-bull, considered only to Achelous, in which he also outlines the Horn of Plenty. He was the first of these to meet him, but the inscription, which he wears on the back of a bearded ox (35), is very rare in the town.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2021, 07:08:52 pm »
"I have deliberately chosen three types to support the thesis that I am advancing, and to make it obvious that the figure of a bull or a man-headed bull can only refer to Acheloios, an identification with which the cornucopia also agrees. The first of these types is common, but quite extraordinary because of the inscription that the bearded bull bears on his back, where SVESA can clearly be read, though the first letter is weak at the top. I showed this coin to Baron Domenico Ronchio, one of our most knowledgeable ancient numismatists, but he responded that he had never seen anything like it, and had no idea how to explain it. But he did mention a possibility that had occurred to me too, that Suesa at the time had perhaps fallen under the domination of Naples, so was obliged to take over that city's laws and to use its coins. One might also conjecture that such an alliance between Naples and Suesa had recently fallen apart, and for that reason Suesa had decided to stamp its own name on coins of Naples that had already been struck and were in circulation at Suesa. For the possibility seems worth considering that the name SVESA was not stamped on the coin from the beginning, but only later, after the coin had already been struck, choosing a space on the coin left empty by the original type, as will be apparent to anyone examining the coin."

Nick,

I don't understand the last clause, "uti nummum contrectani pater". Are those words completely and correctly transcribed?

A couple of other problems or possible corrections:

"segli typos". "selegi"?

It might have affected my translation to know what argument Ignarra is drawing from "the cornucopia".

"The learned numismatic baron's name. I don't know how it would be correctly transcribed into Italian or English.

"explicate". Maybe "explicare"?

"Seusano". needs an additional "s" at end.

"percussa, que". "qua" rather than "que"?

"hoc etiam contemplatione". "hac" rather than "hoc"?

"exaratum suit". "fuit" not "suit".

"cuso jam numismatii". Ending presumably "e" rather than "ii"?

Maybe no article here, since you're right that the idea of an undertype doesn't occur?

Best regards,

Curtis
Curtis Clay

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2021, 06:35:47 am »
Curtis,

Thank you for translating.  I will consult the original today and answer your questions. 

About publishing, I was indeed hoping he didn’t call it an overstrike because that is what I find so interesting—what two early numismatists thought they were seeing.  Now I’m wondering what other theories were out there this early concerning overstrikes, so I’m hoping Mac chimes in.

Nick

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2021, 07:32:24 am »
Correction of last line:  "uti nummum contrectanti patet"

Appears to be "explicate" though the line on the final e did not come through so it looks like "explicatc"

"selegi typos"

"percussa, qua"

"hoc," not "hac"

"exaratum fuit"

"cuso jam numismati"  so just one i



Offline curtislclay

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2021, 10:23:54 am »
Now I understand the final phrase, see translation above.
Curtis Clay

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2021, 12:03:42 pm »
Nicely done, Curtis.  I'll write something up (eventually) and send it along. The two interesting things are that Ignarra seems here to have presaged Rutter's later work confirming a Neapolitan mint for most Campanian coinages, and also the novel explanation for the evidence of an overstrike

It seems to me it is an overstrike.  First, we know Neapolis often overstruck coins, and I am 99% sure Suessa-Neapolis is one example.  Two, on the illustration Acheloios' back is not obscured, which would have occurred if this were a counterstamp.  Third, no such counterstamps exist, to my knowledge.

Nick

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2021, 12:50:14 pm »
Rutter (HN Italy 449) does indeed confirm that the Suessa type featuring Minerva/Cock was overstruck by the Neapolitan MFB type (HN Italy 589).

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2021, 01:48:29 pm »
The plot thickens!

None of the units that fit in the HN 589 category have the NEAPOLITON (or variant) inscription below Acheloios on the reverse. The NEAPOLITON inscriptions only occur on the reverse below the smaller 1/3 units or on the main units that feature various other symbols above Acheloios.  So, either Ignarra got the illustration wrong, and it was not a Nike (or Parthenope-Nike, as I think) flying above Acheloios, or this is indeed something other than an overstrike we are dealing with. 

I'm going to see if I can track down the collection--it may still exist and he has excellent notes.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2021, 02:00:12 pm »
As I pointed out in POTAMIKON (p. 240, no. 382), Sambon (p. 268f) recorded a few varieties that combined obverses and reverses of different cities, namely Suessa, Cales, and Neapolis. But here again the only types that have NEAPOLITON below Acheloios are the smaller varieties.

Sambon 697 does record one heavy variety in Berlin, at 3.04g.  But the Suessa coins in question come in the range of 4.3 to 8g. SO I suppose we could be dealing with an unusually heavy Neapolis small unit overstruck on an unusually light unit from Suessa.

EDIT: Looking again at Rutter I see Taliercio recorded a specimen in her category IVd (of the later, smaller units) that weighed 4g, so close enough that I think we can point to this as the likely overtype.  SO far as I know, this overstrike combo is unrecorded, which would mean we have found a new example of a truly rare overstrike based on Ignarra's line drawing!!!

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2021, 02:32:43 pm »
Eckhel, Doctrina I, 1792, p. 117: It is remarkable that the word SVESA has been found in incuse letters on the reverse of a Neapolitan bronze coin with the common types Head of Apollo / Bull with human face.

Note q: Ignarra de Pal. Neop. p. 259
Curtis Clay

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2021, 02:48:49 pm »
Is there anything in Ignarra’s account that suggests it is incuse

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2021, 03:40:50 pm »
Nothing that I can see.

But Eckhel states it was incuse. Did he know that, or was it just an assumption, based on the fact that countermarks are always either incuse, or raised letters within an incuse?
Curtis Clay

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2021, 04:49:32 pm »
I think just an assumption.

Mac’s earliest reference to scholarly work on overstrikes is Friedlaender, writing in 1877, and Imhoof-Blumer, writing a year later.

Did Eckhel ever mention overstrikes?

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2021, 06:40:21 pm »
Hi Nick,

Thanks for creating this interesting topic. I never knew that such a type existed.

Yes, you are correct when you state that the HN Italy 589 type has the ethnic on the obverse, not on the reverse.

You also mentioned MSP 382. For all of you Forum members out there who don't have Nick's reference book, I have several examples immediately surrounding this type, ranging from MSP 377 to MSP 384, but I don't have MSP 382.

Here is a link to that specific page:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/gi_camp_neap_ae03a.htm

Of course, I have many Campania MFB coins. They are all posted in my website.

Meepzorp

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2021, 07:03:16 pm »
I am confused by the idea that the letters were incuse.  Could this be a mistranslation?  Since it apparent that the coin is known overstruck on similar specimens, we ought disregard the notion that the letters were incuse.  Indeed, they would not appear as they are shown in the drawing if they were incuse.

Mac

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2021, 07:21:51 pm »
I do not think it is incuse either.  But this is not the common HN 449/ HN 589 overstrike combo, based on the reverse exergue inscription of NEAPOLTWN. I’m guessing the HN 449 undertype for a 1/3 Neapolitan unit overtype has never been recorded. 

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2021, 07:32:56 pm »
You might write Francois de Callatay who curates the Greek Overstrikes Database, which contains now over 2000 overstrikes.  He may have something relevant.

Mac

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2021, 07:43:16 pm »
Good idea—I will do that.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2021, 07:58:40 pm »
Hi folks,

I agree. The location and alignment of the SVESA would lead me to believe that is an overstrike. If it is an overstrike, why would it be incused?

Meepzorp

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2021, 08:44:54 pm »
Not a mistranslation, I think:

"Memorabile est, vocem SVESA videri incusam in aversa aenei Neopolitani obvii, in quo hinc caput Apollinis, inde bos cum facie humana."

Eckhel treats overstrikes in his General Prologue, vol. I, p. LXVI, paragr. 6, Numi recusi.

Overstrikes occur frequently on coins of Boeotia, he says. He finds it odd that mints sometimes overstruck not only foreign, but also their own coins. Maybe to change their value, he guesses? Sometimes the reason is clear, however, for example Regalian and Dryantilla evidently overstruck earlier Roman coins because they had no other source for silver. Similarly Jewish revolt coins overstruck on earlier Roman and provincial coins. Eckhel knows of no examples of gold coins being overstruck. No mention of the obvious fact that overstruck coins show us the chronological order of the two coin types involved, as long as one can say for sure which of the types was the undertype and which the overtype.
Curtis Clay

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2021, 07:25:11 am »
Hmmm, so the phenomenon of overstrikes was certainly known about when Eckhel wrote his work slightly after Ignarra, and yet it didn't occur to him that Ignarra was witnessing an overstrike, which seems odd.  Perhaps this overstrike was so peculiar because just the SVESA was clear, or perhaps the numismatic community was unaware that even bronze coinage would be overstruck.

I'll try and write to Francois today.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2021, 07:32:48 am »
Posting the rest of the Neapolis entry now; perhaps there is another clue.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2021, 07:33:17 am »
Second page.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Latin Help with Early Commentary on Neapolitan/Suessan Overstrike
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2021, 07:33:52 am »
And the third and final segment.

 

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