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Author Topic: My Taras collection  (Read 66764 times)

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Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2012, 01:26:26 pm »
Quote from: Taras
I agree with you, the head could be of Taras, and I'm not sure that "the similar image on the larger didrachms of the period could be seen as Satyra", at least not always.

i agree with your "at least not always" comment. in going through my files i have found this didrachm type with portraits distinctly 'masculine' while others are far, far more feminine looking. as i said in my description... "Effeminate perhaps, but Apollo and Dionysus have both taught us that lesson."

~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection reaches 20!
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2013, 03:04:06 pm »
hello all,

today i'm happy to add the 20th coin to my Taras collection! i didn't start out to specialize in this area, but it has definitely evolved that way and i'm happy with the results so far.   :)

my latest addition is this weird little diobol...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-92394

i liked this one for the unadorned helmet, unusual on these, but also for the long ethnic. in fact it is this ethnic which really piqued my curiousity.
Vlasto lists this under the period 302-228 BC, but i think it is later. TAPANTIN suggests to me that this coin was struck after the introduction of a Roman garrison at Taras after the Pyrrhic Hegemony, ie after 271. prior to this the ethnic had always been TAPAΣ, but Rome refered to the city as Tarentum.

have a look, and feel free to browse around...

~ Peter


Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2013, 08:34:33 pm »
i just uploaded a new photo of a coin i received for Christmas. the old scan was really bad, so i think this is much better. hope so anyway...

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-92776

thanks for looking,
~ Peter


Offline arizonarobin

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2013, 02:50:04 pm »
A much better photo! I have been coveting the one in Forvm shop;D

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2013, 04:16:27 am »
thank you Robin.

i've added a new diobol, this one from the Colin Pitchfork collection, and i really like this coin!   :)

Athena Left, wearing a Corinthian helmet decorated with a griffin.
Herakles standing left, wrestling the Nemean lion.

 
i think the dies are quite fine for this issue, and the odd flan shape complies perfectly to the lines of the design (i do wish the reverse was centered a bit better though).
this reverse is unusual in that Herakles is standing facing left, a rarity in Tarentine coinage, although there is a beautiful type struck in gold. combined with Athena left and the much less common Corinthian helmet, this was one i just couldn't pass up. i hope you like it too...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-95153

~ Peter

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2013, 08:06:43 am »
A rare and amazing diobol.
Great acquisition, for a great collection.
Congratulations Peter!
:)

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2013, 01:48:31 am »
thank you Taras!   :)


Offline Enodia

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Gone clubbin'
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2013, 02:47:34 pm »
i just added my latest diobol which i was lucky enough to get at a recent auction for the minimum bid.
this one is yet another depicting Herakles fighting the Nemean lion, but at this point in the battle the Hero has begun to subdue the beast and is kneeling on his back about to deliver a crushing blow with his club.
the seemingly endless variations on this theme throughout the ancient world continue to fascinate me, particularly on these Tarentine coins. 

AR Diobol
380-334 BC
Helmeted head of Athena left, wearing Attic helmet decorated with Skylla. / Herakles, holding club overhead, kneeling left on the back of the Nemean lion; [TAPAN](?) to left, Θ above lion’s head, cornucopia to right.

the control devices on this specimen are not listed in Vlasto or Cote or any of the other resources i have found, so a precise attribution is beyond me at this time. however i'd say it is fair to say that this type is less common than the typical Herakles/lion diobols, and this variety can be called scarce.

so have a look and feel free to leave a comment...

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-95661

thanks,
~ Peter

Offline Matt Inglima

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2013, 04:30:15 pm »
Congratulations on the nice find!  An excellent depiction of Herakles.

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2013, 01:14:49 am »
Congratulations on the nice find!  An excellent depiction of Herakles.

thank you Matt.   :)

i did a little more research and actually found this variety in Vlasto. it is from a slightly later period than i had it listed as before, but that makes more sense actually.

~ Peter


Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2013, 03:01:13 am »
i haven't added anything new to my Taras gallery lately, so i will right now.   8)

this is a silver drachm of the 'owl right, wings folded' variety which i was lacking until a friend found this lovely Athena...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-100076

i like it, and i hope you do too,
~ Peter

Offline quadrans

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2013, 11:48:42 am »
Peter

It is really nice ..
 +++

Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline Enodia

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Very scarce fraction added!
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2013, 03:04:50 pm »
thanks Q.    :)

my latest aquisition is a 1/4 Litra piece from Taras. it is part of a group of unusual fractions which do not contain any of the typical Tarentine devices (ie; horse, dolphin rider, shell, etc).
oddly enough a number of these hard to find types have been offered lately, and all at the same time of course. i bid on two different specimens but came up short, so i bought this one as a consolation prize.
i have only seen one other offered for sale within the past ten years or more, and that from Vlasto's own collection. that one was no nicer than mine though, imo.

this is not a very sexy addition, but it does represent an important addition to the collection and i'm very happy to have it.
so have a look, and feel free to leave a comment if you like...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-100431

~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2013, 05:01:40 pm »
hello all!

today i am adding a much more traditional looking fraction from Taras, complete with all the usual devices. i received this coin as an early birthday present, and while it is not generally considered 'scarce', it is difficult to find one for sale.
i am very happy to have it!  :)

attributing it to a specific denomination is difficult though, as the Tarentine dual standard confuses the issue. Vlasto lists it under the heading 'Litrae, Half-Litrae and Other Denominations', but by actual weight it is closer to an obol.

AR Litra (9mm, 0.52g)
281-235 BC
Scallop shell. / Dolphin rider left.
 
have a look...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-102091

~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2013, 06:54:01 pm »
i decided to indulge myself a little and bought myself a birthday present from here at Forvm...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-102395

this is yet another Tarentine fraction, not too sexy nor particularly rare, but i liked it and didn't have one similar, so...   8)

AR Litra
(10mm, 0.57g)
325-281 BC
Scallop shell. / Dolphin right; bunch of grapes and I below.

take a look and enjoy!
~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2013, 01:31:30 pm »
another fraction from Taras, this one an auction aquisition...

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-102888 

this is another Herakles/Nemean lion type, but with a scarcer control symbol (owl).

AR Diobol
302-228 BC
O: Head of Athena right, wearing plain crested Attic helmet.
R: Herakles standing right, strangling the Nemean lion; club behind, owl with spread wings between legs.

i hope you like it,
~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2013, 01:40:46 pm »
nothing new to add today unfortunately, but i do want to continue a discussion from page 1 of this thread regarding left-facing owls on Tarentine drachms.

earlier we had identified two types with left-facing owls, Vlasto 1065 with the right-facing Athena and Vlasto 1101 with both Athena and the owl facing left. both of these depict owls with closed wings.
but when a 1101 appeared recently at auction i went to add it to my Taras database and found that i already had another one listed from a much earlier auction, but this one with wings spread (see below). it was listed as Vlasto 1101, but is obviously different.
now i'm wondering if this coin is an unlisted variety or a mistake by the auction house.

curiously,
~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2013, 02:27:53 pm »
hey Nico, thanks for replying.   :)

from my files;

Circa 302-272 BC
AR Drachm (3.78g)
Head of Athena left, wearing Attic helmet decorated with Skylla.
Owl with open wings standing left on thunderbolt; ΣΩ to left.
Vlasto 1101; SNG Cop 965v. VF, rare.

i actually think this would be of a slightly later date along with all the other open-winged owls, although the weight seems a bit high.
but who knows?

~ Peter

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2013, 05:58:14 pm »
I spent some hours on this issue.
This coin is not listed on the main SNG catalogues and neither on Ravel-Vlasto, but it is not unpublished. The reference is Garrucci XCIX.13
In 1885 Garrucci ("Le monete dell'Italia antica, Raccolta generale.") published a description and a drawing of the coin. He did not specify the weight, or some provenance, or museum collocation. However the coin is clearly the one you posted Peter.
Some thoughts... the reverse shows the name of the magistrate  :Greek_Upsilon: :Greek_Nu: :Greek_Upsilon_2: :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Nu: :Greek_Iota: :Greek_Omega: , and the engraver initials  :GreeK_Sigma: :Greek_Omega: ... the engraver is well known for his signature (Sometimes  :GreeK_Sigma: :Greek_Omega: :GreeK_Sigma:) on other drachms with the common open wings owl standing right. The magistrate name is new, not even reported by G. L. Mangieri (2012), who listed 40 magistrate names on tarentine coins.
The weight, as you noted, is a bit high, and looking at the plate from Garrucci it seems that also the size is larger than other drachms. A real enigma to me!!
A final meditation... modern scholars have often accused Garrucci to have invented some coins he drew, because they never found corresponding specimens. Well, this case shows that perhaps Garrucci was a careful and painstaking compiler, and not an imaginative inventor of types. And now I wonder if will ever come to light another otherwise unlisted drachm he drew, with the same rev type, magistrate name and engraver signature, but an obverse type totally different from the usual head of Athena, see the attached pic, Garrucci XCIX.12.
However, Numismatics will never cease to intrigue me, there will always be something new to discover.
Peter, thank you very much for your acute observations, without which I might not have ever known this rare tarentine coin.
All the best :)
Nico

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2013, 04:10:04 am »
thank YOU man. that is really great research in such a short time... bravo!

i am unfamiliar with Garucci, but thank him too when you see him.   ;)   

i had assumed that the incription was a magistrate, which fits in well with the open-winged types, as you said. i nearly went blind trying to make it into the ethnic.
the flan looks full, but no diameter was listed. the weight is about 10% higher than i might expect from even a beefy a Tarentine drachm, but the large flan might explain that. still it does seem strange for a later date coin to be so high.

the coin went for more than i was able to pay, so i'm thankful for that. i'd hate to think i missed out on something so important which i might have afforded! this does mean that my left-facing owl collection just became quite a bit harder.   :( 
an interesting piece regardless.

thanks again Nico,
~ Peter



Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2013, 08:46:43 pm »
today i'm showing off my new Tarentine didrachm, the oldest one in my collection...

 https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-105011

i had planned to explain how these are hard to find, and how they rarely turn up in nice condition and are not at all affordable (by me at least) when they do. that was before the latest auction by a well known auction house in which no less than four similar coins are offered.
oh well.
but these are difficult to find in higher grades and must have circulated for a very long time, much like the didrachms of Campania. i do wish it was nicer, but i have been wanting one for some time and i'm happy to have finally gotten this one.

this series of didrachms are refered to as 'Oekist types', due to the appearance of the city founder seated on the reverse. much debate has arisen over this figure, with earlier attributions claiming the seated figure as Demos. my description goes into this in slightly more detail. but perhaps more important to the Tarentine timeline, these are the last coins issued without the ubiquitous horseman for which the city became famous.
it also seems strange to find the dolphin rider on the obverse, and this one looks like he's on his way to a Detroit Red Wings game.   8)

i hope you all like it,
~ Peter







Offline Sam

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2013, 08:50:20 pm »
Rare and nice, and for sure hard to find.

Sam
Sam Mansourati

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2013, 08:11:35 am »
Great acquisition buddy, congrats!

A note on iconography:
Rutter already raised doubts in 1997 about the identification of the seated figure with the Oekist. He speculated about Dionysos, as a deity with powers over animal instincts and underworld (i attach the scan).
The most recent theories by Italian scholars, reported during the Congress of Bari in 2010, tend to reject the "Oekist" hypothesis, based on no iconographic evidence. The only known certain representations of Oekists on coins in south Italy are helmeted heads, not seated figures.
Probably the seated figure on Tarentine coins is to be intended as one of the personifications of Apollo or Dionysos, issue to be deepen.
Here some food for thought:
http://www.magnagraecia.nl/coins/Bruttium_map/Rhegion_map/descrRheANS_751.html
http://www.magnagraecia.nl/coins/Calabria_map/Neretum_map/descrNeretum_AE19.html

P.S.
The same goes for Rhegion, where the seated figure has been recently identified as a deity (most likely Aesculapius or Dionysos), not the oekist Iokastos.
http://www.magnagraecia.nl/coins/Bruttium_map/Rhegion_map/descrRheH_001.html

P.P.S. The strong symbolic religious significance of the diphros (the chair) also emerges from this rare tarentine fractional (the object on reverse is not a distaff or a spindle, as uncritically reported by almost all catalogs, Rutter speculated about a sound-producing instrument, but I am convinced, in agreement with the L.I.N. project scholars, that it is a skewer of meat, which refers to sacrificial cult practices):
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=114157

Best :)
Nico

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2013, 02:01:56 pm »
Greetings Taras, and thank you for the detailed research.

I considered a number of possibilties before landing on Taras. Some early accounts make the seated figure the personification of democracy, along with the similar figure appearing on contemporary coins of Rhegion. These coins were issued about the same time as the political change in both cities, and undoubtedly both did strike coins to commemorate the event. However those coins are bordered with wreaths, and this coin obviously isn't.

Dionysus was another possibility and I admit I have not yet completely rejected the idea, although I am not as confident in this conclusion. But this specimen shows none of the attributes of the chthonic deity, ie distaff, kantharos, etc. Since the city of Taras was not shy about showing these items I have concluded that it was not their intention to depict Dionysus here. I am still open to further evidence though.

But the Deified Hero cult was prominent at Taras, and this passage from Brauer convinced me...

Quote
"... A cult of the heroized dead was particularly important to the religious life of the city; in some respects it was part of Taras' Spartan heritage. On Spartan sepulchral reliefs, the heroized dead frequently held out a cantharos. Together with veneration of the heroized dead in general, there flourished in many Greek cities the worship of the semidivine hero who had died, such as Lycurus of Sparta or Theseus of Athens.According to a local myth, Taras had ruled many years over the pre-Greek city until, in the midst of a sacrifice to his father Poseidon, he fell into the river Taras and drowned. Since the citizens could not find his body, they assumed that he had gone to join his father and started worshipping him as a hero to whom divine honors should be paid (Herodotus). If the seated figure on the coins was intended by his engravers as Taras, he was therefore Taras the heroized and deified dead, the object of religious ceremonies in the state. Although he occasionally sits on klismos, a graceful chair with curved back and legs, his usual seat is a diphros or stool, traditionally assigned to the gods and the heroized dead in Greek art.”


It is true that none of this excludes Dionysus, but it certainly does make a case for the oekist, imo.
In fact Brauer goes on to say…

Quote
“Aside from the cantharos and the diphros, other attributes that occur with the seated figure also suggest his chthonic or underworld nature. He is sometimes shown playing with or feeding a panther, associated at Taras with departed heroes. Sometimes he holds a dove, symbol of the soul.”


How that helps us here I am not quite sure, since these symbols are common to both theories. It is interesting to note that none of these chthonic symbols appear on this coin (one of the last in the series, btw). However Vlasto tells us that the seated figure on my coin is holding a lekythos in his left hand. Looking at it under a glass I might be seeing a lekythos handle, or it might just be the ornate leg of the diphros. But it is interesting that the lekythos was often used as a funerary device.

I am not convinced that the distaff is meant to represent an iynx, or bull-roarer (often fashioned as birds or other animals). Professor Sarah Iles Johnston goes into this subject in her book 'Hekate Soteira: A Study of Hekate's Roles in the Chaldean Oracles and Related Literature', highly recommended reading.

So yes, this may be Dionysus, but it is unusual to find a depiction of a deity without some identifying icon, and since we do not see the distaff or the cup on this specimen, or anything else to signify the god Himself, I remain doubtful.
Could the one series have included multiple principles? Possibly, as we see that some earlier issues apparently depict Democracy while others do not. So perhaps we are seeing both Taras AND Dionysus on different issues? This would not be unprecented, as we have seen Taras, Phalanthos, Iacchus and Poseidon all depicted as dolphin riders.

I am most interested in hearing any further thoughts you may have.

And thank you again,
~ Peter

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2013, 02:54:05 pm »
Good write Peter!
I think that the subject of the identification of deities on ancient greek iconography is really very complex, and you have rightly added complexity to the issue we are discussing.
Sometimes I wonder if (before the Hellenistic period) they really existed Greek gods clearly identifiable, or rather a sort of divine gradient in which the representations of the divinity could fade from one to the other deity, according to ascribed symbolic meaning, and the different cultural influences of the places where they worshiped.
In our case, there is a connection between Dionysus and the "boy on dolphin" (depicted on the other side of the coin) in greek mithology, with phoenician influences.... I am refeerring to the myth of Melicertes/Palaimon: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Palaimon.html.
Could this connection give more substance to the Dionysus hypothesis? But, again, who is the boy on dolphin? It seems that the name Melicertes was derived from Melkart, a Phoenician deity, whose attribute was the seahorse, depicted so many times on the shield of the boy on dolphin!
There is enough material to get a monumental headache!!

I conclude by translating a write of B. Carroccio, which gives us the sense that we have to tolerate much uncertainty when studying these topics:
" ... For these fluctuations of attributions, or polysemy of meanings, it must always be remembered that our difficulties to give a definition, beyond any possible modern misunderstanding, also stem from the substantial "untranslatability" of many ancient cults within the limited number of names of deities maintained by the cultural koine in which the later selections and simplifications wanted them homologated. It is therefore possible that many different "Apollon" existed, away from our modern idea of ​​the god, with different names even in the same city."

Bye friend, it is always a pleasure to discuss with you :)
Nico

 

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