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Author Topic: Sinope Coin and Provanance  (Read 491 times)

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Offline Virgil H

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Sinope Coin and Provanance
« on: February 25, 2023, 08:34:30 pm »
I wasn't sure if I should post this under a thread already going or make a new post. I decided to go with a new post. Provenance has always interested me, but I don't really worry about it that much, seeing a nice provenance is a bonus for a coin I wanted anyway. This coin I will post in my gallery, but am posting here first because the Gallery does not lend itself to posting old tags unless you combine that and the coin into one image, therefore making everything small. So, I just received this coin today, it is not great condition, but I am excited for a number of reasons that I will talk about when I post to my gallery. For now, one of those reasons is the provenance and the dealer envelope that dates to 1912 or earlier. First attachment is the coin, second is the envelope.

The envelope is from E. Boudeau, Paris - dating prior to 1912 - with dealer name, coin description and price (1.00 franc) hand-written in French with an ink pen. Élie Boudeau (1853-1912) was a politician and numismatist in late 19th century-early 20th century Paris. He served in the 5th legislature of the Third French Republic from 12 November 1889 to 14 October 1893. He owned a shop in the numismatic district of Paris at 11 Rue Rameau, only a stones throw from the Bibliotheque Nationale and one block from the Rue Vivienne where several coin shops, including CGB, still exist today.

I looked up Elie Bourdeau and he was an interesting person. I asked the dealer about the coin's life since then. He said it was purchased in 1912 and stayed in the same family that now lives in Chicago. The great, great grandson is selling off most of the collection. I don't know who the family is or who originally bought the coin from Bourdeau, I guess the seller wants to remain anonymous. The envelope is a wonderful thing and the coin is important for a variety of other reasons. This is by far the oldest provenance of any of my coins.

Edit: It was purchased prior to 1912, given that Bourdeau died in 1912, the envelope could have been from much earlier, but actual date of purchase is not known.

Virgil

Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Sinope Coin and Provanance
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2023, 09:27:49 pm »
That's a really cool & interesting one, thanks for posting it, Virgil.

Here's something funny: when I went to add it to my database of images of collector & dealer tags, I found that I already had one! (A photo, that is, not an actual tag.) From Berk sale 221, which had a bunch of other old dealer tags too. But I didn't have the background info, so I'm glad you gave it.


By the way, I've found that the best way to do tags in Forum Gallery is in a "triptych" style photo -- 3 horizontal panels. (If you stack vertically, they do come out way too small.) This way, if someone wants a close look at the tag, they can click on it.

For example, attached, using your tag/coin photos (but reduced in size to keep file small):

EDIT: Also, that looks like an interesting countermark!
“Collect the collectors…” John W Adams’ advice to J Orosz (Asylum 38, 2: p51)

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Offline Virgil H

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Re: Sinope Coin and Provanance
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2023, 10:33:09 pm »
Curtis,

Thanks for the photo tips, I will do that. Can I use yours for my gallery since it is already done? I am not sure it is a countermark, that star (I assume the star) was on a lot of coins and is usually related to Pontos or Pontic influence. This coin was minted after Sinope was conquered and became part of the Pontic kingdom, including the capitol. I will agree it has countermark features, but I am not sure. I need to look into this more. This is a very rare coin. HGC doesn't mention the star and the photo in the book isn't very clear as far as that area of the coin goes, although it might be there. Nothing in Sear Greek. I need to look in my SNG Turkey books and online. I have seen that star so much, I didn't really think about countermark. Since this was minted during the time of Mithradates V, who has only one known royal coin that I am aware of, I suppose it could be a royal countermark for the local coinage. Interesting things to look into.

OK, I am just going to leave my above response. I just looked it up on acsearch and this indeed looks to be a countermark, there are examples with and without it, I looked up SNG Black Sea 1542. Four examples, one with the countermark. Oh my, this opens up a very interesting and fun can of worms. I will be doing a deeper dive on this one now and perhaps it adds one more reason why I like this coin. This coin looks like it comes up for auction once a year at most and last one was 2019. Hoover rates it at R2. I had never seen it for sale before and grabbed it from a dealer. Thanks for your comments.

Virgil

Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Sinope Coin and Provanance
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2023, 10:45:41 pm »
Absolutely, use that for your gallery or edit it anyway you see fit. Star countermarks do seem to be typical of Pontic/Mithradatic coinage, so that would make sense (countermarks were quite popular then and there for some reason, perhaps due to the political changes?).
“Collect the collectors…” John W Adams’ advice to J Orosz (Asylum 38, 2: p51)

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Offline Virgil H

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Re: Sinope Coin and Provanance
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2023, 11:07:27 pm »
Thank you. There are certainly a lot of coins in Asia Minor with that star, most I have seen aren't countermarks, during that period, especially of Mithradates VI, who had a long rule. I often wonder exactly what it meant. Even Roman sympathizers and allies seemed to use that symbol. I don't know enough to have a real opinion, but a fascinating topic..

Virgil

Offline Altamura

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Re: Sinope Coin and Provanance
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2023, 06:02:10 am »
... The envelope is from E. Boudeau, Paris - dating prior to 1912 - with dealer name, coin description and price (1.00 franc) hand-written in French with an ink pen. Élie Boudeau (1853-1912) was a politician and numismatist in late 19th century-early 20th century Paris. He served in the 5th legislature of the Third French Republic from 12 November 1889 to 14 October 1893. He owned a shop in the numismatic district of Paris at 11 Rue Rameau ...
That's an interesting case :). But where did you get this information? From here?: https://www.vcoins.com/de/stores/marc_breitsprecher_classical_numismatist/8/product/domitian_ad_8196_198_sestertius__minerva/1797629/Default.aspx

In my eyes the coin dealer E. Boudeau and the politician Élie Boudeau are not necessarily the same person. There are sources claiming that:
http://cths.fr/an/savant.php?id=121103#
but mostly you find Émile Boudeau as a person of its own without connection to Élie Boudot:
https://isni.oclc.org/DB=1.2//CMD?ACT=SRCH&IKT=8006&TRM=ISN%3A0000000034128636&TERMS_OF_USE_AGREED=Y&terms_of_use_agree=send&COOKIE=U51,KENDUSER,I28,B0028++++++,SY,NISNI,D1.2,E58968a37-29,A,H1,,3-28,,30-41,,43-59,,65-70,,74-75,R46.223.165.151,FY
https://www.idref.fr/068557264

https://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/n2002043343.html
https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb12957911v

The first letter on these little coin envelopes to me seems to be a G, not an E :-\.
In the following paper a Madame G. Boudeau is cited as "antiquaire « cabinet de numismatique », 11 rue Rameau, Paris":
https://www.enssib.fr/bibliotheque-numerique/documents/641-un-cas-particulier-d-archives-privees.pdf#page=65&zoom=auto,-146,613
and a Madame Germaine Boudeau in 11 rue Rameau can be found in the Bulletin de la Société française de numismatique 1953:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k3042677x/f10.item.r=boudeau


So the coin probably comes from the coin dealership Boudeau in Paris at 11 rue Rameau and was sold at a time when some G. Boudeau managed the shop.
But it is still a bit mysterious :).

Regards

Altamura

Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Sinope Coin and Provanance
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2023, 10:54:35 am »
In this case, I believe they are probably the same. I've heard it from multiple sources. (I think Breitsprecher got the "old Chicago collection" from, or with, Berk. It was a great source on turn of the century dealers.) See, e.g. the French wikipedia article describing him as politician and numismatist: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lie_Boudeau

Perhaps G Boudeau is his wife or his daughter (Germaine).

He wrote a couple of contemporary references that are cited in Clain-Stefanelli's numismatic bibliography.

Of course, it's possible there's been some confusion, but balance of evidence is pointing to the same person.

Such confusions definitely happen with 19th-20th century numismatists. I once accepted that Karl Kress ("nachfolger" of Otto Helbing) was the Nazi antiquities photographer captured as a POW by the "monuments men," but it actually appears to be a different contemporary Karl Kress, and that the numismatist Kress tried act benevolently toward Helbing.

I'll keep watching, though. I have a Boudeau entry in my notes, so if they're different, I want to know!

EDITED TO ADD: Actually, on second thought, this is usually the scenario when confusion does happen. There is a well-known numismatic author of a certain name who is famous for a certain thing. And a contemporary dealer of similar name. Everyone could have (like me) assumed they were the same. It's possible.

Or, his daughter G. Boudeau, was an antiquarian and numismatist, following her father. And the business was in his name (either because he started it, or his famous name lent it un caché.)

The politician was part of la Société Française de Numismatique, and died in 1912. I'll edit in what I see once I've located their obituary (I'm sure it's out there).
“Collect the collectors…” John W Adams’ advice to J Orosz (Asylum 38, 2: p51)

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Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Sinope Coin and Provanance
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2023, 11:42:15 am »
EDIT: Oh, yes, I'm mistaken in suggesting the ticket could be from his lifetime, that's wrong. I'll leave it up with this correct. (My main concern here is simply that G's identity is confirmed as Germaine -- the name of E.B. the politician's daughter.) The Mehl & other tickets from this collection were c. 1917-1920s. So I agree that Virgil's ticket is after 1912 (in theory, Germaine could've worked at the shop before, but was young when he died 15-16; in any case, it's very unlikely these were before).

Virtual confirmation: In 1953 (page 10) the Bulletin de la Société Française de Numismatique names the Mademoiselle G. who was running E. Boudeau at 11 rue rameau Paris as "Mme. Germaine." Germaine was the name of his daughter. She was in her late 50s then.

https://rapportgallica.bnf.fr/recherche?query=(dc.identifier+all+%22bpt6k3042677x%22)+and+(gallica+any+%22Germaine+Boudeau%22)&aig=2

If this ticket was written by his daughter Germaine, it sounds like she was already working there in his lifetime as well. (The rest of the collection's tickets -- from Mehl, Frossard, etc. -- were all early 20th century.)

I would have a very high confidence that the politician and coin dealer were the same.
“Collect the collectors…” John W Adams’ advice to J Orosz (Asylum 38, 2: p51)

Galleries https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=27154

Offline Altamura

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Re: Sinope Coin and Provanance
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2023, 03:00:29 pm »
Quote from: Curtis JJ on February 27, 2023, 11:42:15 am
... Virtual confirmation: In 1953 (page 10) the Bulletin de la Société Française de Numismatique ...
That is exactly my last link above  :).

In the  "Annuaire du commerce Didot-Bottin" you find Boudeau in 11 rue Rameau over several years in the category "monnaies et médailles" or similar:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb32697422n/date
From 1909 (the first edition archived at Gallica) until 1914 the entry is "Boudeau (E.)", the editions from 1915 to 1920 are not archived at Gallica  :-\, beginning with 1921 you find "Boudeau (G.)", the last entry in the 1928 volume (being the last one archived at Gallica).

In "Paris-adresses : annuaire général de l'industrie et du commerce" you find Boudeau still 1932:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k11810517/f1397.image.r=boudeau

So G. Boudeau, whoever it might have been, run the shop at least until 1932 and the two envelopes shown here are probably not older than 1912.

Unfortunately I did find in these old documents not a single mention explaining what the "E." means >:(.

Regards

Altamura

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Sinope Coin and Provanance
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2023, 03:44:31 pm »
I am going to look at those links when I have time this evening, but will say a couple things here in response. I appreciate the discussion.

I did get the information from the dealer, but I then also did a search for Boudeau on the web. The E is his first name Elie. There are a couple of fairly short entries about him, one on Wikipedia. I am in a rush right now, will find that later.

I also found the "E" on the envelope strange and noticed it, but I did not come across any mentions of the daughter or wife. That part is quite interesting. The entries I found discussed Boudeau as a politician and classical numismatist who had published on numismatics. So, I was trying to verify what the dealer was saying and I believe I did so, although I am totally open to a "G" instead of "E." However, I assumed it was still the same shop.

The info I got about the Chicago family I got via personal communication with the dealer because I wanted to know where the coin had been since it was purchased from Boudeau. He has other coins from the same collection listed. That particular coin checked all my boxes.

More later.

Thanks for the discussion.

Virgil

Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Sinope Coin and Provanance
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2023, 04:14:46 pm »
Quote
I am totally open to a "G" instead of "E." However, I assumed it was still the same shop.
Yes, I think G, but I see no reason to doubt that they're the same shop:
E. Boudeau (Élie) operated the shop on 11 Rue Rameau (see for example, Alain Poinsignon's library notes [PDF]). Until about his death, in 1912.
G. Boudeau (Germaine) continued to operate her shop on 11 Rue Rameau (see the references in Altamura’s and my comments).


Quote
G. Boudeau, whoever it might have been,
Altamura  --  You're definitely correct about the date of the envelope. BUT, we do know who “G” is, that was the point I was trying to make (but I didn't make it very clearly). The document specifically names "G" as "Germaine." That means we can accept that E. Boudeau really is the politician.

Germaine is the name of E. Boudeau’s (the politician) daughter.

(See, e.g., the biographical volume by Mayeur & Schweitz, 2001, Les parlementaires de la Seine sous la Troisième République, vol 1, p. 97: [Google Books LINK; it also characterizes him as a "Numismate professional" (professional numismatist) and a member of the French numismatic society, as does his bio page on the French National Assembly's webite [i.e., Parliament]: https://www2.assemblee-nationale.fr/sycomore/fiche/(num_dept)/1017 "Biographies" tab.)

Biographical sources tell us the politician Élie Boudeau was a member of numismatic societies, numismatic professional & author, had a daughter Germaine, lived in Paris, and died in 1912. All of those coincide with the Paris coin dealer and author of various books and catalogs and articles about coins.

So, I find it difficult to imagine that he wasn’t also the coin dealer, Élie Boudeau. If there is reason to think otherwise, I'd be very interested to know. I think a lot of people would be surprised. (Virgil’s coin dealer is far from the only person who believes they’re the same.)


Quote
are probably not older than 1912

I agree 100% about the date of the envelope. (Probably c. 1917-1920s based on the other coins.)

The best information for dating the envelope is the other records from the "old Chicago collection" (from which this coin came). The collection included many other older dealer tickets (mostly American). The ones with dates all seem to be late 1910s through the early 1920s. (There were at least 12 other ex-Boudeau coins in Harlan Berk’s BBS 221; the website shows many of the tickets, but I don’t think any of the Boudeau ones have dates.)
“Collect the collectors…” John W Adams’ advice to J Orosz (Asylum 38, 2: p51)

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Offline Altamura

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Re: Sinope Coin and Provanance
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2023, 04:50:15 pm »
Meanwhile I found a page of the Assemblée Nationale, the French parliament, describing Èlie Boudeau as a professional numismatist ("exerça désormais la profession de numismate."):
https://www2.assemblee-nationale.fr/sycomore/fiche/%28num_dept%29/1017   (click on "Biographies")
and if these people are telling it, then it should be true  :).

Boudeau apparently also had some not so good periods in his life and had been sentenced to prison, something most of the sources are concealing :-\:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k774355r/f1.item.r=boudeau.zoom   (zoom in and you will see it)
But this article is also a confirmation that he was selling coins.

Still unanswered is the question how the "Émile" came into play  :(.

Regards

Altamura

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Sinope Coin and Provanance
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2023, 03:28:52 pm »
I have been looking at the links above and finding my own new links. I would agree with the discussion. Here is the French wiki that I translated, I hope the link works for the English translation:
https://fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Élie_Boudeau?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

The daughter is mentioned in this one. Here is the French original:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Élie_Boudeau

A translation of another French page mentions "Emile" as follows: "Many books on numismatics are indicated as having "Emile Boudeau" for author: probably by mistake! Refer to the General Catalog (online)."

The French page is here: https://cths.fr/an/savant.php?id=121103

Note that there are number of his books for sale, mostly reprints and print on demand, and all the listings use "Elie."

So, the real question is the date of the envelope. I emailed the dealer and asked if he knew or could find out when the coin was purchased. I am not sure, but get the idea that he is sin touch with the family. I may be totally wrong, but I am thinking that the lower quality coins are being sent to dealers, while the higher quality coins are/were being auctioned. Again, I may be wrong. On the envelop, I may change my tag and listing to "prior to 1920" and explain that the tag was mostly done by Germaine.

But, then I noticed his full name is Jean Elie Boudeau. Is there any chance that the letter is actually a "J?" J is closer to G, for sure. It still looks like a "G," but could be a "J."

I also saw a page that discussed Boudeau's brushes with the law, which is on the French page, quote here:

"In August 1892, the Seine prosecutor's office filed an arrest warrant against Boudeau in the context of the Vergnaud affair, a baker and money changer from the rue de Rennes on the run [ 4 ] . He was then implicated in the affair of the Caisse centrale de Paris, and the owner of his soap factory in Saint-Ouen filed a complaint for unpaid debts. He declares himself innocent on both counts. In the midst of this tumult, he then went to Lyon and the press declared him missing [ 5 ] . In 1895, he would have been arrested by the Belgian gendarmerie and handed over to French justice for acts of fraudulent bankruptcy. He was imprisoned in Lille prison before his transfer to Paris."

Seems quite an interesting character.

In retrospect, it seems we are all finding the same pages. But on one of my searches, David Atherton's gallery came up. It seems Boudeau is still used as a reference for French medieval coins. The one page I couldn't find was the English Wikipedia entry, I am sure I found it before. Oh well.

Cheers,
Virgil


 

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