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Author Topic: Issues with Mantis Database  (Read 362 times)

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Offline Virgil H

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Issues with Mantis Database
« on: October 02, 2022, 10:33:28 pm »
I always have issues with the ANS Mantis database because they never (I think) reference their coins to outside sources. Since I never see an ANS collection number used as a reference, it is great to find a coin there, but when I document the coin it is lacking.

Case in point.

A have a coin from Bithynia, Calchedon. I am pretty sure it is HGC 7 544, everything matches, but the image is so small in the book. This coin is not in Wildwinds or Sear Greek. I did find it in Mantis where the photos confirm my coin, although the weight in Mantis is an obvious typo (it says the coin is 33.19 grams, when mine is 3.72 grams). There is no way 33.19 grams could ever be correct.

HGC identifies this coin as R2, very rare, which may be why it doesn't show up in Wildwinds or Sear. I don't know, I have found the ANS databases extremely helpful, but often with no references, which I wish they had.

I also can't find an example on CoinArchives. As this is a bronze coin that I would have assumed is common, I often can't find such coins on auction aggregate sites because they usually aren't worth enough to auction individually. But, now I am not as sure.

The photos are from Mantis for reference, there is no doubt my coin is the same type. Mine is AE17-18, 3.72 grams, and 180 degrees.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Virgil

Offline Altamura

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Re: Issues with Mantis Database
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2022, 02:36:03 am »
... I always have issues with the ANS Mantis database because they never (I think) reference their coins to outside sources. ...
Sometimes they do, but not always, that's right.

This is probably a matter of effort, it is a bit time consuming to find out the right references. Make a donation, then they can do more :).

You could at least have given the link to the ANS specimen  :-\, it is this one: http://numismatics.org/collection/1944.100.42018

But why not finding out more references by yourself? For me this is part of the fun :).

Use for example the Isegrim Excel file at Wildwinds: https://www.wildwinds.com/Isegrim/Isegrim_allfiles.xls
There you find as reference for this type "BMC BLACK SEA 127; LOCKETT 2861 PART; Photiades Pacha coll. 1517 (Hoffmann May 1890)".

The BM specimen can be found here:
http://www.s391106508.websitehome.co.uk/PHP/SNG_PHP/04_03_Reply.php?Series=SNGuk&AccessionNo=0901_0127
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_1961-0301-63

There you find a reference to an article "The Civic Coinage of Calchedon" by İnci Türkoğlu. By a bit of googling you find this article here: https://www.academia.edu/18385218/Civic_coinage_of_Calchedon
There the coin is the type B01, it is also said that there is a smaller and a larger variant.

And you find some specimens in acsearch:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4603569
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3682728
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2594436
giving an additional reference to RG.

The BnF has a specimen which is cited in the Waddington collection: https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb418099010

You see, there are plenty of references and it is not impossible to find them by yourself  :).

Regards

Altamura

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Issues with Mantis Database
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2022, 12:23:45 am »
Altamura, thanks for this response. Maybe I wasn't completely clear. I looked everywhere I know to look, including in the books I have. I found it in Mantis.I use ANS databases a lot, but they do not usually include the common references for their coins. I love researching coins, it is part of why I buy a lot of unattributed coins. Because identifying them myself is fun, a challenge, and allows me to spend more times with my coins. My point was that Mantis can be frustrating. I find a coin, as I did here, but there is no reference beyond that. I mean, at least I know I have the right coin, but I like to include references in my tags. I am not sure what you mean by donating and maybe they would include more references. That I doubt because they have their set format. Plus, I do donate to ANS, I am a member at least and I pay my dues. I'm totally satisfied with my membership, as well, they are a wonderful organization. I spend on their books and symposiums, as well. I would give more except I live on a limited fixed income. I donate to causes I believe in even though I really can't particularly afford it, especially in the world of inflation since Jan 2021 that is killing me and others. Charity is something I do regardless, but it usually involves helping poorer people and not a well-to-do numismatic organization when I feel my limited charity funds are better spent on the needy. I just don't think an extra donation to ANS is going to get them to change how they do their databases, Maybe if I were Jeff Bezos or something. LOL. Not that he gives money to anything but himself. If I had his money, there would be a ton of organizations that would get a ton of money, including ANS.

Thank you as always for your references, I am always in awe at your knowledge in this regard. I did a few days of research before I posted my frustration.I guess I am satisfied I know what the coin is, I was just hoping to find more and was surprised I couldn't. Isegrim is one of those databases I have not been able to figure out at all and have never gotten anywhere with it. I will look at that link for sure. I had no clue it was even associated with Wildwinds and I use Wildwinds a lot. I have tried Isegirim searches and am clueless using it to get any relevant results for anything.

Perhaps I was unfair to ANS and Mantis, but I have always found their descriptions lacking, including with the usual coin reference information as we see from dealers and auction houses, although extremely useful for finding coins in their collection. I guess that is their purpose, but with many of those identifications, that is where it ends, too. I do not care that it is a Newell bequest (I mean, I appreciate that info), but I want to know the other references in the literature. As a matter of interest, if their identifications were that great, they would be major references used by dealers and auction houses, yet one never sees this.

Thanks for your always wonderful responses,

Virgil

Cheers,
Virgil

Offline helvetica

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Re: Issues with Mantis Database
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2022, 08:39:11 am »
Virgil: The "normal", old Isegrim database was difficult to use for many people because of the way you had to enter the data you were looking for. The wildwinds xls file which I have compiled (by the way - currently with 6,270 coins MORE than the original Isegrim database) is in xls (Microsoft Excel/LibreOffice/Openoffice Calc) format with dropdown columns.
So, for example, for this coin you would first select the "AE BC" sheet, then, click the little arrow next to the word CITY (top of column B), and select CHALCEDON - this shrinks the long list to only coins of Chalcedon. Yours has a bull standing left, so click the little arrow next to the word OBV TYPE (top of column F) and select ANIMAL BULL L - this shrinks the list to just one entry. This is your coin with the references mentioned by Altamura. (I will add the BMC reference)
(Note that different versions of Excel, LibreOffice etc. have different ways of selecting entries in the dropdown lists. All my XLS lists are compiled using my trusty, fast, tweakable and non-fancy 15 year old Excel.) To get the entire list back again, use Data -> Filter -> Show All (or similar).

Offline Anaximander

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References with cross-references in online sites
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2022, 10:44:48 am »
I agree that there are some shortfalls in providing references in MANTIS and in similar online resources (BnF Gallica and SNG come to mind). Some of these resources just were not built to support much in the way of cross-references and are increasingly marginalized.  The ANS MANTIS database has some errors and omissions built-in.  As Virgil points out, MANTIS is rarely cited as a reference (I'd use their SNG first), and I find searches are harder than they could be. 

Happily, some newer resources do a better job of providing references both old and new, and some accept submissions (Wildwinds among them). 

Case in point: HN Online.  While presently limited in its coverage, it provides considerable depth in references. Big bonus: it's easy to search.  For a Carian tetrobol of Hekatomnos, I see about a dozen references, mostly to SNGs, and most with links to photos. That's really helpful!  I haven't yet been able to swing a login so that I can "participate" by providing coins with references.  One day, I shall.

Apologies: I haven't included outside links in this post (something Altamura does with aplomb). A prior discussion involving Historia Numorum Online has been moved, ring-fenced, or deleted.  I couldn't say why.
Anaximander Barypous
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