Rare Arcadius

[Legatus]

I have been informed that this Arcadius is very rare.  I would like to confirm this and also find out how I can determine a coins rarity for myself.  Thanks

Arcadius AE4 RIC IX 20c Minted at Alexandria

OBV:  DN ARCADIVS P F AVG, diademed, draped bust right
REV:  SALVS REIPVBLICAE, Victory advancing left, trophy over shoulder in right, dragging captive with left, CHI-RHO left field, ALE Gamma in ex
1.1g, 13mm

Legatus

[Joe Sermarini]

If you search Forum's catalog for Arcadius Alexandria (select all to see available and sold examples), you will find two examples.  Our descriptions do not list the type as rare (or even scarce) because we do not think it is rare.  

[Mark Z]

Legatus,

In general, RIC rarity ratings should be taken with a grain of salt due to the length of time between  the published date of the particular volume and the passage of time with the inevitable finding of more coins.

That being said, according to RIC IX, this coin is considered "common." Given that it was written in 1951, I think we may safely assume that it is even more common today.

mz

[mcbyrne21]

So to answer the question, one way to tell a coins rarity is by rankings that people have tried to establish in various publications (ie RIC). Another way (and one that may be a little more current) is to see how many are readily available in the marketplace and for how much they are selling.

This may be a situation that depends on one's point of view.  The person that told Legatus it was "very rare" may have been comparing the coin with say modern american quarters, in which case it would seem very rare.  I am curious as to the background of Legatus' source: was it another ancient coin dealer (in which case they might have been engaging in a little sales talk), a modern coin dealer, etc.  

[benito]

And one of the tragedies ( financially speaking of course) in the life of a collector is when an extremely rare  coin  (rarity 9 out of 10 ) is found in enough quantities in a hoard.
Prices go down,at first discreetly,with time more steeply.
Somebody knows how many Carausius with three portraits,if any, have  appeared in one of the last British important hoards found some months ago . Frome hoard if I remember correctly.

[Legatus]

So to answer the question, one way to tell a coins rarity is by rankings that people have tried to establish in various publications (ie RIC). Another way (and one that may be a little more current) is to see how many are readily available in the marketplace and for how much they are selling.

This may be a situation that depends on one's point of view.  The person that told Legatus it was "very rare" may have been comparing the coin with say modern american quarters, in which case it would seem very rare.  I am curious as to the background of Legatus' source: was it another ancient coin dealer (in which case they might have been engaging in a little sales talk), a modern coin dealer, etc.  

The person telling me the coin is rare is another ancients collector, researcher and author, Doug Smith, who has nothing to gain by making this claim.  The coin is mine and has been for some time.  The topic came up when I questioned the mint mark on this particular coin.

I should have checked Forums holdings and other sellers wares prior to asking the question.  Of course you are all correct, especially since more coins are found every year.  I suppose establishing rarity in this market is like trying to hit a moving target.  Rarity of any particular coin is certainly used as a sales point by most if not all dealers.  I certainly don't blame them, but if they have a source I wanted to be able to utilize that source as well.

Thanks for all your answers and support.

Legatus

[mauseus]

Hi,

Somebody knows how many Carausius with three portraits,if any, have  appeared in one of the last British important hoards found some months ago . Frome hoard if I remember correctly.

No triple bust Carausius in Frome, nor Elveden. There was a single example in Rogiet.

Regards,

Mauseus

[benito]

Good.

[slokind]

To Legatus:
I do know that Doug Smith has not formed his own collection on grounds of rarity but rather for their interest in any number of connections.
Anyhow, something I've been wanting to say for a long time (so not being personal in saying it in regard to your nice Arcadius), anyone who collects for rarity has not yet learned to collect for the coins (whether their art or their fabric or their metrology or their politics, etc.) or because the individual coin appeals to the potential owner, is not yet a coin collector but only a person trying to enhance his prestige.
Yes, I know that's not what you meant, but do keep it in mind.  Above all, don't like your little Arcadius any less if it proves to be only, perhaps, a bit scarce or even common.  Especially since yours is uncommonly attractive: you should choose it for its preservation or its good die engraving, for example.  In an issue listed as C or even C4, the range of attractivenes can be very great indeed.
Pat L.

[mwilson603]

Legatus,

In general, RIC rarity ratings should be taken with a grain of salt due to the length of time between  the published date of the particular volume and the passage of time with the inevitable finding of more coins.

That being said, according to RIC IX, this coin is considered "common." Given that it was written in 1951, I think we may safely assume that it is even more common today.

mz

To back up one of Mark's arguments, but unfortunately to go against another, there are situations were RIC claims that a coin is common but you don't see the coin available anywhere for years.  So yes take the rarity ratings as indicative at best, but be aware that actually coins can sometimes be rarer than stated, as well as commoner.
regards
Mark

[benito]

Do you mean the Talibans ?

[Legatus]

I have never collected these coins with rarity in mind.  I know I am not the classical ancient coin numismatist as I collect coins based mainly on its attractiveness to me.  Of course I have some coins, i.e. Otho, that I have gone out of my way to find.  But as a general rule, I look at coins and decide to buy because I like the looks of a particular coin.  Once I have the coin, I like to research not only the coin, but the history of the ruler, the mint city, the reverse type, or other such things.  My wife thinks I'm nuts as I spend hours and hours either looking at coins or researching coins.  She says I spend more hours at this than I ever did with my children when they were young.  That's a given!  These coins are my children now, and they don't talk back!!

But, it is nice to find a coin that is considered rare, especially one that you may have cleaned or purchased thinking it was one thing and now it's something else (good that is - not fake).  As I research my coins, I was looking for some place that may also list how rare a coin/type might be.  Just another item to be adding to my catalog.  That's all.

Legatus

[Pekka K]

If You list this coin as: RIC IX Alexandria 20 (c)1,
it becomes certainly less common.
There is a note against this field mark 
"confirmation required", thus before 1933, when
Pearce wrote these lines, he had not seen Your
type of coin.

Pekka K

[mcbyrne21]

And one of the tragedies ( financially speaking of course) in the life of a collector is when an extremely rare  coin  (rarity 9 out of 10 ) is found in enough quantities in a hoard.
Prices go down,at first discreetly,with time more steeply.
Somebody knows how many Carausius with three portraits,if any, have  appeared in one of the last British important hoards found some months ago . Frome hoard if I remember correctly.

Benito,

Is your example in your gallery?  I did not see it (although this could be pure oversight on my part).

[dougsmit]

None of the Forvm specimens are intact to the point that I would consider them as confirmation of the listing in RIC 20 c 1 but one of them (sold with partial mintmark) may very well be.  The OP coin does seem to be one.  Whether or not the coin is of interest to the market, I thought there was a chance that someone here would find interest if the coin had not been confirmed.  It is interesting that RIC IX chose to note a coin as both C common and not confirmed to exist.  Probably since 1933, there have been others of these turn up but I note that neither Wildwinds not Warren Esty show one so such coins probably should just be ignored and let the author of the next RIC edition list the coin based on a guess whether it exists or not just like last time. 

For the record, if the coin is in fact the only demonstrated specimen of 20 c 1, I would place its value at exactly the same as I would if it were one of a few hundred found since 1933: about $5-10?  I'm not aware of anyone doing a 'Not in RIC' list of RIC IX.  Is someone? That might bump the value (to $6-12?) but I wouldn't bet on it.  Most of us pay for quality and consider rarity a side dish.

[Legatus]

Doug, I wanted to apologize to you for using your name in this thread without first asking your permission.  I realized my mistake the moment I sent my response.  I hope you will not hold this against me in the future.

Sincerely,

Legatus

[Vincent]

I've been collecting LRBC's since the mid-1970's on and off and was able to add a large portion to my collection in the last decade because of the web. Anyway, I can tell you one thing I found, the more I collect them, the less I find them as "rare". To be honest, many are somewhat available if one is patient.  It does take time, but those Romans produced a hellava a lot of those little nummies. RIC is unreliable generally for rarity. What ever you do, do not collect LRBC's as an "investment", this area of collecting is just for fun!

[Legatus]

I've been collecting LRBC's since the mid-1970's on and off and was able to add a large portion to my collection in the last decade because of the web. Anyway, I can tell you one thing I found, the more I collect them, the less I find them as "rare". To be honest, many are somewhat available if one is patient.  It does take time, but those Romans produced a hellava a lot of those little nummies. RIC is unreliable generally for rarity. What ever you do, do not collect LRBC's as an "investment", this area of collecting is just for fun!

Without a doubt!!

[gavignano]

The lack of help of RIC for rarity spurred me to take a survey of offerings of Constantine I campgates on eBay. I "published" it in Numiswiki. I found many "surprises."
Also, I want to add that "comparative" rarity is different, and ultimately more easy to "track", than absolute rarity. for example, of Constantine I campgate mints, Ticinum is by far the toughest to acquire, yet. upon occasion I see 1 to 2 offerings of the mint on [REMOVED BY ADMIN]. Having a coin currently appear on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] or Forvm does not imply that it is easier to get than you may first have thought, as the net is a worldwide coin shop.

[Vincent]

Thank you, Gavignano, for your list and comments.  "Camp Gates", along with 2 Soldiers and Standard(s), are perhaps the most common ancients ever produced. I may add to your post about Camp gates.  In addition to what you wrote,  Sirmium issued "Camps" for Constantius II (Caesar) that are scarce but come up on the market regularly. Also his London issues are difficult to obtain. The hardest and most "rare" Camp Gate was one from Constantinople for Crispus. Seems that the Prince was executed at the time of the opening of the mint itself! The Rome VIRTVS AVGG/CAESS are very hard to purchase also. Seem to be "grabbed" as soon as they hit the market.
Your post was enlightening on how "common" these truely are in general. Of course, that being sad, if a collector is looking for a specific variety, it can be "rare". Still, no reason to have "fun" with them.