FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board

Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Greek Coins Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Paul S13 on July 14, 2021, 10:13:21 pm

Title: Syracuse AE Litra
Post by: Paul S13 on July 14, 2021, 10:13:21 pm: Dear members,

I try to date this Syracuse AE Litra.

Is it a Dionysios I one, a Timoleon, or strucked during the period of another ruler?

What are the characteristics which distinguish the different dolphin Litras in Syracuse?

Thanks for your time
Title: Re: Syracuse AE Litra
Post by: Meepzorp on July 15, 2021, 04:25:27 am: Hi PS,

That's a good question, because I don't know the answer. I wasn't even aware that there was a distinction. Perhaps there isn't a distinction. It may be a situation where the experts (modern scholars) aren't certain.

Your example is much nicer than mine. My example is dated as circa 395 BC. It is not attributed to any specific ruler.

Here is my example (second coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/gs_sicl_syra_pt02.htm

Meepzorp
Title: Re: Syracuse AE Litra
Post by: Paul S13 on July 15, 2021, 02:56:50 pm: Ηi Meepzorp,

impressive your Litra with the hippocamp depiction, although significant smaller in size.

Lets hope some experts here will enlighten us further

BR
Title: Re: Syracuse AE Litra
Post by: Enodia on July 15, 2021, 04:33:25 pm: This twin dolphin litra is generally attributed to the reign of Dionusus I, although Sear places it in the Time of Timoleon. Two different attributions but I believe the same issue. Confusing certainly.
I don't know how we got onto the hippocamp type but there are two different issues of this same design, one a litra and the other a hemilitron.
Hope this helps somewhat.

~ Peter
Title: Re: Syracuse AE Litra
Post by: Meepzorp on July 16, 2021, 03:28:07 am: Quote from: Enodia on July 15, 2021, 04:33:25 pm
This twin dolphin litra is generally attributed to the reign of Dionusus I, although Sear places it in the Time of Timoleon. Two different attributions but I believe the same issue. Confusing certainly.

~ Peter

Hi Enodia,

Thank you for confirming what I suspected. That is basically what I alluded to above. You phrased it differently and with more detail.

That is why it is probably best to not attribute it to any specific ruler, and just provide a year range, which is exactly what the dealer did in my case.

Meepzorp
Title: Re: Syracuse AE Litra
Post by: Brennos on July 16, 2021, 07:30:07 pm: The 405-400 BC dating under Dionysos I is now a large consensus. See recently M. Puglisi "La Sicilia da Dionisio I a Sesto Pompeo" 2009 or Fischer-Bossert "Coins, Artists and Tyrants" 2017
The coin is also named a drachm as it is identified as the δραχμαὶ καττιτέρου (drachm in tin) mentioned in Pollux Onomasticon.

There are some evidences that Athena/dolphin and Athena/Hippocamp are the major and the minor nominals of a same monetary system set by Dionysos.
Title: Re: Syracuse AE Litra
Post by: Paul S13 on July 22, 2021, 07:23:16 pm: Indeed Brennos,

Dionysos I mixed tin with bronze in his coins

Btw. refreshing my linguistic skills: Tin is in Greek κασσίτερος

BR
Title: Re: Syracuse AE Litra
Post by: Brennos on July 23, 2021, 11:23:34 am: yes, καττίτερος is Attic greek where ionic -σσ are replaced with -ττ
Title: Re: Syracuse AE Litra
Post by: PtolemAE on August 03, 2021, 12:29:23 am: Quote from: Paul S13 on July 22, 2021, 07:23:16 pm
Indeed Brennos,

Dionysos I mixed tin with bronze in his coins

Btw. refreshing my linguistic skills: Tin is in Greek κασσίτερος

BR

One of definition of bronze is an alloy mixture of copper and tin, sometimes with minor amounts of other elements. Not sure what it would mean to 'mix tin with bronze'...

PtolemAE