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Author Topic: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P  (Read 7901 times)

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Offline Nikko

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Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« on: January 07, 2013, 04:57:53 pm »
Constantine's AE Follis, struck in Londinium at the biginning of the year 312.

O//: CONSTANTINVS P F AVG, bust r., laur., cuir.
R//: P•M•TR•P•C-OS•II•P•P•, diademed emperor std. to l. on curule chair, cloak over l. shoulder, r. holding sceptre. Star in left field. PLN in exergue.

RIC VI Londinium --, Cohen 397 (30 gold fr.), Huvelin 204.

There is a die match with the Huvelin's coin.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/notinric/6lon-263.html
http://www.inumis.com/ressources/rome/books/cohen/vol_vii/p275.html
Scribendi recte sapere est principium et fons

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2013, 05:25:57 pm »
Hi Nikko,
Is this your coin?

Ben

Offline Nikko

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2013, 05:30:01 pm »
Hi Nikko,
Is this your coin?

Ben


Hi Ben!
It isn't yet in my hands, but it's mine.

Nicola
Scribendi recte sapere est principium et fons

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2013, 05:34:30 pm »
Congratulations - great find!

I've never seen one for sale before!

Do you have any idea where it was found (what country)?

Ben

Offline leetoone

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2013, 05:37:38 pm »
Interesting! Another example was found recently and is recorded here:

http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/534674

Also a die match. Incidentally the coin recorded in Huvelin is actually in the Lisbon Museum as originally recorded by Strauss.

Just like buses!

Lee

Offline Nikko

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2013, 05:38:02 pm »
Congratulations - great find!

I've never seen one for sale before!

Do you have any idea where it was found (what country)?

Ben


It comes from France.

I'm extremely excited...

Nicola
Scribendi recte sapere est principium et fons

Offline areich

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 05:56:51 pm »
Now that's a rare Late Roman, that I haven't seen before either.
Andreas Reich

Offline Nikko

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2013, 06:06:18 pm »
It was struck to commemorate the second consulship of Constantine, which started on the January 1st 312.
Sutherland dates the emisisons with star in left field  to late 312 - may 313, but acording to this dated coin we should anticipate them, i suppose.
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Offline Vincent

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 07:25:27 pm »
Cool coin and extremely nice reverse...first one I've seen and lucky you.

Offline HELEN S

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 07:46:44 pm »
 that is a great coin you have there well bagged CONGRATULATIONS   +++ +++

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 08:44:41 pm »
It was struck to commemorate the second consulship of Constantine, which started on the January 1st 312.
Sutherland dates the emisisons with star in left field  to late 312 - may 313, but according to this dated coin we should anticipate them, i suppose.

Huvelin, following Strauss, thinks your coin must have been struck immediately after Constantine entered the consulship on 1 Jan. 312. That means that the issue with star in left field has to be backdated too: Lafaurie thought it began c. May 311, Huvelin suggests c. Sept. 311.

We should give up Cohen's description of the reverse type: "Woman seated on double cornucopia." Surely it's the emperor seated on a curule chair, a standard type for commemorating an imperial consulship!

A vey nice acquisition!
Curtis Clay

Offline Victor C

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2013, 09:16:51 pm »
If anyone is interested, I just uploaded the Huvelin article, unfortunately some of the plate coins are not so clear.

Huvelin, Helene. “Les Deux Emissions Londoniennes.” Numismatische Zeitschrift 101 (1990) 29-50.

http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/articles/Huvelin_Les_Deux_Emissions_Londoniennes.pdf

Victor Clark

LRB gallery

Offline leetoone

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 07:11:23 am »
As I have mentioned elsewhere I am currently revising Huvelin’s paper and I thought it might be useful to outline a few thoughts here. Dane also produced an English translation of the introductory text of Huvelin’s original paper and I’ll check with her if we could make that available somehow. My revision should be available in three or four months.

The left star issue is actually two issues as during this mark the weight and die size was reduced to 1/96 (3.36 g. average) and 19mm and, according to Bastien, this took place in the middle of AD 313. This differentiation was not noted in RIC VI. Huvelin leaves out the reduced weight types, that were all standard GENIO, MARTI or SOLI types. These should really have been included at the beginning of RIC VII which commences with this weight reduction at other mints.

The earlier unreduced left star issue was certainly still being issued towards the end of 312 as several types refer to the return of Rome after the battle of the Milvian Bridge (FELICTAS, ROMAE AETER, ROMAE RESTITVTAE, SECVRITAS). The issue continued into 313 until the mid-year weight reduction. As to when that issue began, Lafaurie is probably too early with May 311, Huvelin could be nearer with September 311. So for the left star issue we have a window of late 311 to mid 313 when the reduced weight issue commenced. However it is unlikely that a COS II type would be issued late in 312 or afterwards as Constantine’s 3rd Consulship was about to begin (AD 313). So this coin type was probably issued before mid 312.

The Right star issue includes a variety of types with consular busts (virtually unknown in the left star issue) and one assumes that these were issued at the end of 311 or the beginning of 312 to mark the second consulship. Recently a number of coin types have come to light that combine a consular bust obverse with ADVENTVS reverses. It has been speculated in the past that Constantine may have visited London at this time. I would suggest that these new coin types add weight to that argument. The possibility that Constantine visited Britain to recruit troops for his forthcoming campaign against Maxentius prior to his recruiting visit to the Rhine frontier is very likely. This would mean a visit in late 311 or early 312. The SPES REIPVBL types of this issue with ADVENTVS style reverses may have alluded to the forthcoming return of Rome to the “true emperor”.

Previous speculation about Constantine’s visit to Britain can be summarized as: Casey suggested summer 312, Barnes suggested late 310, the historical window is late summer 311 to summer 312 and numismatic evidence now suggests late 311 or early 312.

So, in summary we have the right star issue ending at the very end of 311 or, more likely, early to mid 312 and the unreduced left star series starting in late 311 or early 312, probably including some overlap to allow for a surge in the production of “commemorative” and “recruitment” issues.

Sorry if this is going slightly off-topic but I think it important to put Nicola’s coin in context as it is an important piece of numismatic and historical evidence for the period. I would be most grateful for any comments on the above.

Well done and keep it safe Nicola  :)

Offline Nikko

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 07:48:44 am »
Thank you Lee, i'm working on these concepts too.

This is what i realized:
___
PLN   (RIC 101-115) -> from 307 to mid 310 (including common coins struck at 1/48 lb standard and rarer coins struck at 1/72 lb standard after the Maximius's elevation as Augustus)

T  F
___
PLN  (RIC 116-127) ->  from mid/late 310 to mid/late 311 (it looks to be a long and abundant emisison)


*  *
T  F
___
PLN (RIC 128-132) -> late 311 (a really short emission)

I can't really understand when the Right star issue begins and ends while we could be reasonably sure the the left star emisison starts in the fist half of 312 (or earlier).
So, could the two "single star" emisison be  contemporary?
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Offline leetoone

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 09:04:37 am »
I think we are looking at the right star emission beginning early to mid 311 but difficult to be precise. I don't there would be complete overlap with the left star emission. The make-up of the two emissions are quite different and they refer to different times - pre Milvian Bridge expedition and post Milvian Bridge. But some overlap is virtually certain. I have seen the die links that Huvelin refers to in the BNF, of course die links can theoretically happen in a day.

For additional interest, here is an image of one of the consular adventus combos:

Offline leetoone

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2013, 09:09:01 am »

We should give up Cohen's description of the reverse type: "Woman seated on double cornucopia." Surely it's the emperor seated on a curule chair, a standard type for commemorating an imperial consulship!


BTW I totally agree with Curtis!

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2013, 09:14:19 am »
A couple of other considerations in precisely dating these London issues:

1) RIC 101 & 102 (COMITI AVGG NN, nominally in PLN -- issue) appear misattributed/diagnosed, and really have star in right field.. I've seen RIC 101 (Oxford coin) and the reverse is consistent with a star in right field lost due to condition. Multiple obverse die links from this coin to this later series also exist. This makes COMITI AAVVGG in the PLN T-F issue (noted for Constantine only, and rare) the start of this type, and is consistent with the minimal recognition of Licinius and Maximinus before the star series.

2) The "bust of Sol" type does exist from London (3 specimens known, all sharing reverse die), presumably issued at same time as from Trier, and the bust style appears to indicate issue at start of PLN T-F issue (or maybe predecing PLN - reduced issue). I'm still waiting to find obverse die matches to confirm this.

One neat thing about the P M TR P COS II P P type is that it's the only bronze coin of Constantine's to include the Pontifex Maximus title. In gold it also only exists on this same type (from Trier & Ticinum), last used at Trier in 320 (COS VI).  It's an interesting title for the Constantine collector given the reglious background.

Ben

Offline Nikko

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2013, 09:24:20 am »
The make-up of the two emissions are quite different and they refer to different times - pre Milvian Bridge expedition and post Milvian Bridge.

I agree.

The PLN T-F issue have to be a little shorter that Huvelin thought (6-9 months instead of 14-15 months).

It could be interesting to know where is the coin reported by Cohen .
Scribendi recte sapere est principium et fons

Offline leetoone

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2013, 10:03:26 am »
A reference for Ben’s note on RIC 101 – 102 - Stewartby refers to this in “A Critical Die-link of Constantine” in Essays in Honour of Carson and Jenkins 1993.

A reference for the stars over T/F issue see - D. Hollard, “Le statut de l’émission londonienne *T/*F//PLN de 312 : à propos d’un nummus inédit de Licinius”, Bulletin de la Société Française de Numismatique 5, 2004, p. 84-88. Another update I am currently working on.  I have now located 29 examples of this very rare issue.

Nicola - I suspect Cohen obtained his information from Mionnet : Mionnet Tome II p. 234-5 (2nd ed. 1827). It was later mentioned by Maurice : Maurice Tome II 1911 p.35.

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2013, 10:33:56 am »
A reference for Ben’s note on RIC 101 – 102 - Stewartby refers to this in “A Critical Die-link of Constantine” in Essyas in Honour of Carson and Jenkins 1993.

Lee,
There's also another die link to a Principi Ivventvtis (2 standards) coin in Robert Bernobich's collection here:

http://www.numisology.com/Londinium.htm

It's the 3rd coin from the bottom (ref 104-945) on the "307-310" [sic] tab.

Ben

Offline leetoone

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2013, 11:17:56 am »
Thanks Ben. I'll make a note of that.

Offline Adrianus

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2013, 01:27:27 pm »
Hi all,

A significant find and hot on the heels of the one that came in just before Christmas which Lee has posted the link to above. When I saw that one at the detector club I was rather gobsmacked - after turning over so many thousands of Constantine coins over the years that was a rather special treat. So in a couple of months we have tripled the number of known examples  :)
The example I dealt with should hopefully be going to the Castle Museum in Norwich. If we take the London bus analogy then a third might turn up  :D

A very interesting discussion on the consular busts since I am currently working on the various consular bust types for Constantine I, Crispus and Constantine II from the BEATA issues (and those just before) at London, Lyons and Trier, trying to pull them together in terms of date. They must have significance - it is just a case of ordering the issues to reflect that...

Regards,

Adrianus 

Offline Nikko

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2013, 06:10:12 am »
2) The "bust of Sol" type does exist from London (3 specimens known, all sharing reverse die), presumably issued at same time as from Trier, and the bust style appears to indicate issue at start of PLN T-F issue (or maybe predecing PLN - reduced issue). I'm still waiting to find obverse die matches to confirm this.

Could London's unmarked folles precede the Trier issue?
Gautier wrote that these unmarked folles were struck at the end of T F/ PLN or rather in early spring 312  as at Treveri.
This implies that right/left star emisisons started in the second half of 312: it's possible but hard to belive.
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2013, 09:53:19 am »
2) The "bust of Sol" type does exist from London (3 specimens known, all sharing reverse die), presumably issued at same time as from Trier, and the bust style appears to indicate issue at start of PLN T-F issue (or maybe predecing PLN - reduced issue). I'm still waiting to find obverse die matches to confirm this.

Could London's unmarked folles precede the Trier issue?
Gautier wrote that these unmarked folles were struck at the end of T F/ PLN or rather in early spring 312  as at Treveri.
This implies that right/left star emisisons started in the second half of 312: it's possible but hard to belive.

There were at least two issues of the Mars/Sol bust types from Trier - one pre-reduction at 1/72 lb, and one post-reduction at 1/96lb. I believe the first (pred-reduction) issue was most likely at the same time of the 310 coinage reform that introduced the new weight standard and Marti Conservatori and Soli Invicto Comiti types - i.e. at the beginning of the PTR T-F issue at Trier and beginning (not end) of PLN T-F issue (or preceding brief reduced PLN -- issue) at London.

By the way, please post large photos of your new coin when it arrives - I'm excited to see it!

Ben

Offline Nikko

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Re: Constantine I - P M TR P COS II P P
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2013, 10:02:47 am »
I finally get it.

Here are larger photos.
The data are: 3,9g / 21mm/ die axis 180°
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