Anastasius´coin puzzles no. 2

[byzantiumcoins]

Here´s no. 2 coin puzzle:

26-28 mm  /  6,74 gr.

Have fun !

byzantiumcoins

[iaculator]

it looks like Class C.. but there is not a Jesus standing..

[byzantiumcoins]

Hi iaculator,

This coin shares the reverse inscription with class C but even the "design" is different.
Class C has a jewelled cross with pellet at each extremity whereas here we have a plain cross,
and, as you write, the obverse is completely different.

byzantiumcoins

[yafet_rasnal]

An anonymous follis class N i.e. a follis of Niceforos Basilacius?

[byzantiumcoins]

Well done !

NICEPHORUS BASILACIUS ( 1078 ) AE Follis ( Anonymous Follis Class N ) - SEAR 1903A

and here´s the story:

When Philipp Grierson started publishing the Dumbarton Oaks collection in 1973,
none of the only two specimens known of this type showed a readable legend,
thus the coin was treated as "Anonymous Follis" Class N

Later on 2 coins have been published with parts of legend, that made an attribution to Nicephorus Basiliacius very likely.
( Philipp Grierson, "Nicephorus Bryennius or Nicephorus Basilacius in Numismatic Circular January 1976, pp 2-3
and Roger Bland, "A Follis of Nicephorus Basilacius?" in Numismatic Chronicle 1992, pp. 175-176 )

Another specimen showed up when the William J. Conte Collection was sold in 1994
and two more have been auctioned in the last 10 years.
All known specimens are overstruck on earlier coins and thus they are very crude and of course in poor condition.
The coin pictured above isn´t a beauty either, but it shows parts of the legend that confirm the attribution to Nicephorus Basilacius.
To the left of the obverse the beginning of the legend is clearly visible:

+NIK (HFW) ... and to the right the most important part ...(RO) C bAC... is also visible.

byzantiumcoins

[iaculator]

i have a surprise to all of you about this as well.... really by chance..
yesterday afternoon i found and bought a similar one.. reverse (ýc xc ný ka)  is just the same.. but obverse there is a profile, but i think  a slight clearer than this..in fact i couldnt see a circle around his head but maybe because it s uncleaned..Dimensions are nearly same with this coin.. i ll send its photo tomorrow ..

sincerely..

[iaculator]

here it is...

[byzantiumcoins]

I am afraid I will have to disappoint you.
Your coin is not Byzantine, but has been struck by Tancred of Antioch  ( 1104-1112 )
Ref. Schlumberger pl. II, 7
These Crusader States often copied Byzantine coins.

byzantiumcoins

[iaculator]

really?....

well, in a way that s good for my collection because it s my first Crusade coin..)

Thank u very very much, i m very sorry of course, i gave u wrong news

sincerly..

[byzantiumcoins]

Don´t be sorry for posting the coin, this is what the FORVM is for.
For more information about the crusader state of Antioch and its´relation to Byzantium have a look at wikipedia.org:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Antioch

byzantiumcoins

[yafet_rasnal]

These Crusader States often copied Byzantine coins.

The normann crusaders copied byzantine coins because they used to do it also in their homelands, the kingdom of Sicily

[byzantiumcoins]

Hi Yafet,

the coins struck in Sicily imitating Byzantine coins were struck later than the ones of Antioch.
At the end of the 11th and beginning of the 12th century mostly Islamic coins have been copied
using legends in cufic script.

It was only after 1127, during the reign of Roger II when the Normans started to imitate Byzantine coins
in Sicily.

Byzantium-coins

[yafet_rasnal]

Hi Yafet,

the coins struck in Sicily imitating Byzantine coins were struck later than the ones of Antioch.
At the end of the 11th and beginning of the 12th century mostly Islamic coins have been copied
using legends in cufic script.

It was only after 1127, during the reign of Roger II when the Normans started to imitate Byzantine coins
in Sicily.

Byzantium-coins

Sorry Byzantiumcoins, but you are totally wrong. The first norman coins of south of italy are dated 1059 ( Riccardo of Aversa) and the one surely imitating byzantine coins start from 1076 (Robert Guiscard). So surely before the first crusade (and then also of any emission of the crusaders).
Normans just continued the tradition of south italian kingdoms to struck copper follis imitating byzantine ones.

[byzantiumcoins]

Dear Yafet,

as far as I know ( I am of course very much willing to see new coins )
both Roberto Guiscardo and Ruggero I did not imitate Byzantine coins but kept on using the style
of the Islamic coins of the "Califfi Fatimidi"
Please just give me any references or fotos of Norman coins struck in Sicily before 1127 that imitate
Byzantine coins.

Kind regards
byzantiumcoins

[byzantiumcoins]

Here is what Rodolfo Spahr has published for Robert Guiscard and Roger I :
None of them looks Byzantine.

[yafet_rasnal]

Here is the first one from Robert Guiscard:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=19230.0

....and Spahr is just about sicilian mints of normans, not all the mints!

[yafet_rasnal]

I suggest you to read Travaini book about norman coins of south of italy.

[byzantiumcoins]

Here is the first one from Robert Guiscard:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=19230.0

very interesting coin, though I do not yet understand why Robert Guiscard should have written
" ROMANO II " on the reverse of his coin, but I will follow your advice and read Travaini first.

....and Spahr is just about sicilian mints of normans, not all the mints!

Yes of course, we have never spoken of anywhere else but Sicily.

Kind regards
byzantiumcoins

[yafet_rasnal]

I just posted an example that was already on the forum.if you want i will post more pics. He wrote romano because he was imitating Romanus follis.
We spoked of normans that made and ruled the kingdom of sicily, and itcomprehended half of italy and used many mints, some in Sicily, some in south Italy.
By the way coins minted in italy between V and XII is my collecting area.

[vercingetorix]

Lucia Travaini has a very good expertize on italian coinage and it's definately worth reading. Lorenzo, as you are well informed on the subject I suggest you write a bigger post on the normand Italian possesions, both history and numismatics, so all the interested members may have a bigger picture of this subject.

[vercingetorix]

BTW Wolfgang, your coin is exceptionally rare (which you know already). I think I have seen myself only one sold a decade ago at Baldwin's, I think I still have the catalogue '94 or '95. Congratulations!

[byzantiumcoins]

normans that made and ruled the kingdom of sicily, and itcomprehended half of italy and used many mints, some in Sicily, some in south Italy.

Dear Yafet,

thanks very much for posting this map.
I guess we have in fact talked about different things, I have talked about the mints on the island of Sicily,
but you are right, we should consider the whole of the Kingdom of Sicily.

Since I do not ( yet )collect these coins I have always looked at this from the Byzantine view, only considering the mints of Sicily itself.
( I have only a few of the 12th cent. Norman coins from the mints in Sicily island )
Anyway I think it would be a great idea to have a separate thread about the Nomans in Sicily as vercingetorx suggests.

Kind regards
Wolfgang

[byzantiumcoins]

I think I have seen myself only one sold a decade ago at Baldwin's, I think I still have the catalogue '94 or '95. Congratulations!

That one should be the specimen from the  William J. Conte Collection.

byzantiumcoins

[yafet_rasnal]

Wolfgang if you will decide to collect norman coins i will help you with some suggestions

[byzantiumcoins]

Wolfgang if you will decide to collect norman coins i will help you with some suggestions

Dear Lorenzo,
I appreciate that and we will surely be in contact.