Caesar Elephant Denari - Different Types

[carthago]

I posted a BOT challenge earlier today and Andrew McCabe schooled me on different Caesar Elephant Denari types.  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=83790.0

I see what I consider 4 main types of this issue based mostly on the design of the elephant.  As Andrew pointed out, these are not inconsequential difference as different style types probably indicate different mints of this enormous issue.  I don't consider myself anywhere near the expert as many on this board, but what do you think of the 4 types below?  Are there others that I'm overlooking - -  which means in I need to aquire someday  

#1 Fat Elephant - The upstart BOT Challenger listed above:

#2 Pig Elephant - to use Andrew's label

#3 Normal Elephant - this is the most lifelike proportionally to my eyes thus I call it "normal"

#4 Hybrid Elephant - this incorporates the ears and longer tusk profile of the "Pig" with the body and lambda legs of the "Normal"


Interested in other views on this interesting issue.

Chris

[Andrew McCabe]

The first two pics correspond to Woytek's two main types (with Lambda and Pi-shaped legs respectively). The third and fourth both correspond to hybrid types which Woytek identified that have stylistic elements as the second type (e.g. the narrow reverse elements) but design elements (e.g. the Lambda legs, and seriffed lettering) of the first type. This combination suggests that they are probably later coins, from the western mint(s), that copied some elements of the eastern types (Marseille or Italian Gaul) when these became available to the die engravers. In rarity terms, perhaps 60% of coins are of the first type, 30% of the second, and 10% of various third-types; as the third-variety are scarcest, their hoard prevalence isn't enough to say a lot more e.g. whether they are also from Narbo or perhaps from elsewhere in Gaul or Spain. I had not considered to divide them into further sub-varieties as suggested by carthago but perhaps it is justified.

A die-study would of course help sort out the "third variety" coins - determining whether they link with each other and/or with the second variety (pig elephant).

The spiral design on the fourth coin's axe-handle is certainly unusual.

[carthago]

The first two pics correspond to Woytek's two main types (with Lambda and Pi-shaped legs respectively). The third and fourth both correspond to hybrid types which Woytek identified that have stylistic elements as the second type (e.g. the narrow reverse elements) but design elements (e.g. the Lambda legs, and seriffed lettering) of the first type. This combination suggests that they are probably later coins, from the western mint(s), that copied some elements of the eastern types (Marseille or Italian Gaul) when these became available to the die engravers. In rarity terms, perhaps 60% of coins are of the first type, 30% of the second, and 10% of various third-types; as the third-variety are scarcest, their hoard prevalence isn't enough to say a lot more e.g. whether they are also from Narbo or perhaps from elsewhere in Gaul or Spain. I had not considered to divide them into further sub-varieties as suggested by carthago but perhaps it is justified.

A die-study would of course help sort out the "third variety" coins - determining whether they link with each other and/or with the second variety (pig elephant).

The spiral design on the fourth coin's axe-handle is certainly unusual.

Interesting observation regarding scarcity and mints. 

Ok, copy of Woytek now on order.  My competency in German barely allows me enough confidence to bid on foreign auctions, but I'm pretty good good with pictures! 

Thanks Andrew!

Chris

[dougsmit]

I can't help thinking that the photos on this page gathered in one place make this thread a candidate for Sticky consideration. 

[Andrew McCabe]

Ok, copy of Woytek now on order.  My competency in German barely allows me enough confidence to bid on foreign auctions, but I'm pretty good good with pictures!  

Thanks Andrew!

Chris

In addition to Arme et Nummi, which in a general manner suggests an east/west split between the types, also relevant is Woytek's later article on multiple-parallel-dies that shows the "bad-style coins" (your second example) to have been struck using triple parallel dies (sometimes on a large flan you can see evidence of the adjacent die or dies), and that this is a feature of Nimes / Nemausus; hence the good-style (your first coin) come from Marseille or further east in Italy, and the bad style (your second coin) from Nimes or elsewhere in Provence, and other hybrid types (your third and fourth coin) from Provence or from north Spain.

I suspect this same technique could be used to split Antony's legionary denarii, which come in several distinct styles, as can be seen below. Perhaps different mints?

[carthago]

Andrew -

That's an interesting observations with the parallel dies.  I didn't know that was a method of increasing (i'm assuming) mass production.  I wonder if that was also the case with some of Caesar's portrait denari which are so often poorly manufactured that's it's virtually impossible to find a pristine example.  I've read that the mints were under extreme pressure to produce these massive issues but the production quality is some of the worst of Roman Republican coinage imo. 

Chris

[*Alex]

The following information is from the British Museum. Although it refers to republican bronze there is no reason why a similar method wouldn't have been used to mint large quantities of denarii.

To speed up the minting process, coin blanks were sometimes cast in strips, like this rare example, and then struck in quick succession, before being separated into individual coins. This was an ancient attempt at mass-production to supply one of the world's first urbanised consumer societies with money.
These bronze coins, known as asses, were made in the name of the Roman Republican moneyer Lucius Calpurnius Piso Frugi.

Alex.

[4to2CentBCphilia]

The following information is from the British Museum. Although it refers to republican bronze there is no reason why a similar method wouldn't have been used to mint large quantities of denarii.

To speed up the minting process, coin blanks were sometimes cast in strips, like this rare example, and then struck in quick succession, before being separated into individual coins. This was an ancient attempt at mass-production to supply one of the world's first urbanised consumer societies with money.
These bronze coins, known as asses, were made in the name of the Roman Republican moneyer Lucius Calpurnius Piso Frugi.

Alex.

That is a darn interesting photo.

[cicerokid]

So a remnant of a sprue certainly doesn't necessarily be an indicator of fakeness.

That really is an interesting photograph.