Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia  (Read 9339 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2020, 12:13:01 pm »
Thanks, Joe.

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2021, 11:52:35 pm »
Here’s another update:

Recently picked up a decent sized lot of ancient Iranian arrowheads, which I documented and uploaded to the gallery. I’m not providing direct links to those here, but they represent AE Arrowhead #’s 19 – 27.

I do, however, want to provide links to two pickups that I find particularly interesting.

The first is what appears, at first glance, to be a Luristani dagger hilt with double-eared pommel. However, with about half the blade remaining, it measures only 2 ¾”. I would imagine that, with blade fully intact, it would have measured about 3 1/4".

It was, then, an imitation of a Luristani dagger, but in a reduced scale. Such miniature “daggers” are very rare. I've only seen two for sale since I started collecting the weaponry a couple years back. (This being one of the two)

My specimen is listed as “AE Hilt #3” in my gallery:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-167295
Enlargement:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16274/Hilt_3.jpg

Such small imitative daggers are described by Houshang Mahboubian as surgical instruments. Whether or not that is a reasonable speculation, I don't know. Mahboubian, who possesses what has been described as "one of the most magnificent collections of early Iranian bronzes in the world," illustrates a number of them in his book Art of Ancient Iran: Copper and Bronze. I am providing the relevant illustration from his book below.

However, such tiny weapons are described elsewhere (in the listing of one on the market a while back) as having had a probable “votive or ceremonial function.” And, I suppose the votive interpretation probably makes more sense to me than the surgical instrument theory. As you can see, in the upper part of my image from Mahboubian’s book, the ancient Iranians had a number of surgical instruments which, it seems, were designed exclusively based on their function. One might rightly wonder, then, why some surgical instruments looked the part – like instruments of surgery – while others would replicate daggers.

The other item I want to provide a link to is a socketed spearhead that I uploaded this evening. Described in the seller’s listing as being from Luristan, it is a reasonable match for one illustrated in Ezat O. Negahban’s Weapons from Marlik – specifically, Plate X, figure 130. (As mentioned in my initial essay at the top of this thread, “Luristan” is used pretty liberally for Late Bronze/Early Iron Age weaponry from Iran and nearby southern Caspian Sea locations) I provide a pic from Negahban’s book below, as well.

AE Spearhead #20:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-167482
Enlargement:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16274/AE_Spearhead_20.jpg






Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2021, 02:04:38 am »
This is an incredible collection. A few of those in the lower photo look like Zulu assegai spear heads of much more recent make. Just a comment on what you said about surgical instruments. The top photo certainly shows multiple instruments that have to have specialized uses. Certainly, surgery or medical would be within the realm of possibility. Some of those certainly don't look like weapons. Even the daggers could be surgical. Even though the Persians were extremely advanced, medical knowledge was lacking and pretty crude, as it was everywhere. Even up to modern times, saws were and are a part of medical surgical kits, especially in the military. My comment probably isn't helpful, but that collection of yours rocks. Thanks for sharing it.

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2021, 09:04:20 am »
Thanks for the comments, Virgil. Much appreciated.

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2021, 10:52:29 pm »
Just realized I may have implied your spear points weren't real. I didn't mean that at all. Sorry for that confusion. I have three Zulu assegais, two of which are authentic and one is probably a tourist type device, although I still wouldn't want to be stabbed with it. And mine aren't really antiques, the two are less than 100 years old. I just meant the points look similar.
Virgil

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2021, 05:44:14 pm »
Nice stuff Robert.  I entirely share your views in the small object.  It really seems that votive use is more likely than medical instrument based on form.  I have not googled "Luristan votive" but I assume it is a thing....

Though Mahboubian's is a great collection, that doesn't mean that the descriptions are up to date and accurate.

There was a great fad for "medical implements", in collection reports and catalogues, and in fact still is. 

So many Roman objects labelled "medical instruments" are items that may have had that use, but also had many other uses - many more common uses like cosmetics, kitchen, etc.  Logic tells us that for every Roman doctor there were literally thousands of Roman ladies - and thus thousands of cosmetic scoops for every medical probe.

SC

SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2021, 10:49:40 am »
Virgil, no worries. I understood the point you were making.

Shawn, great insights as usual. Thanks for the comments.

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2021, 07:07:29 pm »
In my second post in this thread, I devoted a paragraph to “Looking Ahead.” It was written in summer of 2019, as I was embarking on this new and challenging collecting area. In addition to stating my hope of acquiring “a reasonably affordable dagger with a penannular (crescent-shaped) guard…” (which is something I still hope to do), that post originally also stated my desire to pick up one or more specimens from “the well-known John Piscopo Collection,” and “socketed (as opposed to tanged) spearheads.”

Since posting that, I added two socketed spearheads to my collection and gallery. So that knocked off one of the aforementioned items from the “Looking Ahead” list.

Today I add a blade from the Piscopo Collection - and so the reference to the hope of acquiring one from that collection has now been edited out:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-168248
Enlargement: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16274/AE_Dagger_7.jpg

From a visual standpoint, there’s nothing particularly spectacular about it, although it does represent a type I did not previously own. Its importance is in its provenance. I had earlier opportunities to pick up some relatively affordable ex-Piscopo pieces, but they exhibited signs of bronze disease, which I try to avoid when possible.

I also added my fourth spear butt today:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-168247
Enlargement: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16274/AE_Spear_Butt_Counterpoise_4.jpg

Hopefully there is a “penannular guard” dagger in my future, but I expect it’ll be a long time coming…

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10689
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2021, 09:25:50 pm »
Again so many nice additions, Bob,  👍

Congratulations

I always enjoy it

Joe/Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2021, 11:06:42 am »
Thanks, Q.

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2021, 05:58:37 pm »
I really can't find a less weird way to say - nice butt.

But it is a nice addition to your collection.  Very interesting with the dots on it.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2021, 06:51:35 pm »
Thanks, Shawn.

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2021, 10:55:17 pm »
The most recent addition to the gallery is AE Dagger #09. It is in poor shape, needing conservation. But it is such an interesting and rare type. I'm happy to have it join the collection. As I state in its description in the gallery, the lower portion of hilt was cast in imitation of an inlaid flanged hilt, complete with guard flanges. (See the hourglass-shaped part of the hilt - compare it, for example to the actual flanges/tabs on the hilt of AE Dagger #04) In addition, the pommel is divided into two semicircular "ears." I've photographed the dagger from different angles, to give a sense of how those "ears" splay outward when seen from the side view.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=170527
Enlargement at:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=170527&fullsize=1

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2021, 08:02:09 am »
A classic Luristan type.  I always thought these were really cool.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10689
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2021, 10:53:22 am »
Hi, Bob.

 I always enjoyed your new additions... +++

 Joe/Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2021, 11:06:22 am »
Thanks, Joe.

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2021, 11:22:26 pm »
An update: I've done a bit of tidying up in the gallery as far as the titles to the following three weapons are concerned. Each had previously been referred to as an "AE Dagger/Short Sword." One of the three has now transitioned to just "dagger", the other two to "dirks."

The reason for the retitling is this: Edged ancient weapons are often classified by length. If one measures 36 cm (14”)  or less, it is, technically, a dagger. If one measures between 36 cm (14”) and 50 cm (19.6”), it is, technically, a dirk. If one measures greater than 50 cm (19.6”) it is a sword. The new titles are meant to better conform to this standard for classification.

The former AE Dagger/Short Sword #01 is now AE Dagger #10. AE Dagger/Short Sword #02 is now reclassified as AE Dirk #01. AE Dagger/Short Sword #03 is now AE Dirk #02

And I just uploaded my latest blade, which I am calling AE Dirk #03:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=171601
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16274/Dirk_August_21_c.jpg

Now, to be honest, I am not sure if each retitling would pass muster since I am basing these on blade lengths alone (since grips/hilts are missing). AE Dirk #03, which is a blade sans grip, measures 44.2 cm/17.4". It's a safe bet that a handle would add a couple inches below the tang - thus perhaps qualifying the weapon as a sword. (Well, unless it is actually a very long spearhead, that is - original usage is often muddy with these) Slippery slope. I'm not losing sleep over this, though. My AE Sword #01, which is also just a blade, measures 18". So why am I not calling that one a dirk too? Well, because the tip is missing on that one. So the blade itself is incomplete and was longer in antiquity. That one does qualify, then, as a sword: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=157242




Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2021, 11:51:41 pm »

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2021, 10:45:49 am »
Thanks, Jay!

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10689
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2021, 04:50:58 pm »
Hi Bob,
I am always interested in your new gallery.
It’s an interesting classification idea, it all depends on whether each piece you mention and quote fits into this system, or of course you have to modify it from time to time.

Congratulations, nice work... +++

Joe
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2021, 04:54:52 pm »
Thanks, Q.

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2021, 11:07:32 am »
My latest acquisition has forced me to change the title of my gallery from “Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia” to the more inclusive “Weaponry of Western Asia.” It is a so-called “iron mask sword,” one of only about 90 extant examples of this very strange variety of ancient Iranian weapon:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=172543
Enlargement here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16274/Iron_Mask_Sword.jpg

From what I can tell, the remaining iron mask "swords" usually measure less than 50 cm (about 19 ½"), which is, technically, the measurement that serves as the division between the classification of a dirk and a sword. However, for whatever reason, they are nonetheless popularly referred to as swords rather than dirks in the references.

Most of the authors specializing in ancient Iranian weaponry date iron mask swords to the early first millennium BC. Oscar White Muscarella (Bronze and Iron: Ancient Near Eastern Artifacts in the Metropolitan Museum of Art) speculates that "The homogeneity of all the swords of this class suggests that they must have been made within a relatively short period of time and by a limited number of craftsmen." It's conceivable they were manufactured by a single workshop. Muscarella goes on to discuss the complexity of their manufacture: "Technologically, swords of this class represent a remarkable accomplishment of the ancient craftsman for they are one of the most complex weapon types known from antiquity...On macroscopic examination alone one has the impression that they were made in one piece – the intent, no doubt, of the craftsmen. However, both X-ray and careful laboratory examination of many examples have demonstrated that all the swords were in fact constructed from a number of units, varying in quantity from sword to sword."

They all have disk-shaped pommels that are decorated with heads (protomes) - that hang over the edge of the disk and that seem to morph into frogs(?) on top of the pommel. They also feature grips with two molded cords, ending in guards adorned with couchant predators (lions?), and blades curiously set at a 90-degree angle to the handle.

It seems likely that these swords were created for some ceremonial purpose. Certainly, their unique form must have had some special significance. But the meaning of their iconography is lost to time.

I have been well aware of this strange variety of ancient Iranian sword for several years. That awareness was exclusively the result of research. A number of examples from the collections of major museums are well documented in reference books and websites. But, until just recently, I had not spotted any on the market. I was thus amazed to see one in an auction recently and, despite its very poor condition, I submitted what turned out to be a winning bid. Even with its many obvious flaws, it’s a standout piece in my collection. My new pickup measures 17 ½", although it has certainly lost some of its original length to the severe corrosion. I haven't weighed it, but it is quite heavy.

In my example, one of the two heads adorning the pommel seems more animal than human. I’ve provided details of one head to the left in my gallery image, details of the other to the right.

The crouching animals on either side of the guard are very hard to decipher on mine. Their rear legs are somewhat visible. But imagination may be needed to make out much more than that. They are facing inward in the details at the bottom of the picture.

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2021, 04:57:14 pm »
This is a stunning piece. Beautiful.

Virgil

Offline Kamnaskires

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2021, 06:30:22 pm »
Thanks, Virgil!

Offline PMah

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 598
  • Qui risus classe devicta multas ipsi lacrimas...
Re: New Gallery: Bronze Weaponry of Western Asia
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2021, 12:36:25 am »
Interesting collection, thank you for sharing.  Is weight perhaps a factor in distinguishing a spear head from a dagger? 
Be Well, Stay Healthy, Support your Local Numismatic Club

Paul 

My Gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity