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Author Topic: Diocletian in strange paludamentum  (Read 1169 times)

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Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« on: May 13, 2022, 02:14:31 pm »
I just came across this Diocletian medallion. The drapery (paludamentum) looks very strange for me. Extensive tooling? Forgery? For comparison example of the same type from Gnecchi.
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Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2022, 02:57:35 pm »
Hi LS,

I think it has been severely tooled. The fields have also been smoothed.

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Offline wolfgang336

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2022, 06:21:29 pm »
I agree that this is the product of heavy tooling. The drapery folds looked like they've been carved in rather than struck. 

Offline SC

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2022, 08:09:29 am »
His beard has been horribly tooled too.

His "drapery" reminds me of a "preppy" wearing a sweater in the 80s.

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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2022, 09:02:39 am »
His "drapery" reminds me of a "preppy" wearing a sweater in the 80s.

You mean something like that?

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Offline SC

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2022, 07:58:33 am »
A photograph of Diocletian leaving his palace in Split!

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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2022, 10:37:07 am »

I am convinced that this medallion is a fake. Everything tells it: the engraving, the metal and its color, the "patina", the details of the bust and of the reverse, etc. It has been reworked on a mould taken from a real, authentical medallion.
I put here the direct pics of a genuine medallion to make this obvious.
I chose this authentic medallion, as the fake has been clearly moulded on a genuine medallion showing THIS pair of dies (see lettering, details).
S. Estiot

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2022, 12:27:41 pm »
the fake has been clearly moulded on a genuine medallion showing THIS pair of dies (see lettering, details).

Yes, it is very probable. But the mystery remains. Lettering and many details were copied with some care. So why the paludamentum was formed as a bunch of fantastic folds? Even a complete amateur will notice the difference.
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Offline clueless

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2022, 03:30:28 pm »
Maybe the answer is to never underestimate the power of stupidity.

I did visit the ECB in Frankfurt am Main several years ago and had the fortunate possibility to examine a lot of fake € notes there. The interesting fact was that many of the technically indeed well executed fakes were let down by details that could only be explained as pure stupidity on part of the forgers. Maybe that is the case here, too.

Just my 2 c,

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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2022, 08:19:20 am »
Maybe the answer is to never underestimate the power of stupidity.

Indeed. It seems the main mistake was touching up the mould without any knowledge of what they were looking at, nor using a photo as a guide.

The source coin is in the BnF, so one can imagine the visiting perpetrator trying to clandestinely make a mould of the coin, only somewhat successfully, then making this sub-par effort to clean things up when they got home.

The "drapery" details on the copy do, at large scale, follow those on the original, just that by not understanding what they were looking at, it's gone a bit wrong!

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2022, 09:17:41 am »
This brave fantasy still amazes me.
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Offline SC

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2022, 04:40:46 pm »
Looks like Diocletian got his head stuck in a Gordian knot.....

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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2022, 09:59:00 am »


Indeed. It seems the main mistake was touching up the mould without any knowledge of what they were looking at, nor using a photo as a guide.

The source coin is in the BnF, so one can imagine the visiting perpetrator trying to clandestinely make a mould of the coin, only somewhat successfully, then making this sub-par effort to clean things up when they got home.

The "drapery" details on the copy do, at large scale, follow those on the original, just that by not understanding what they were looking at, it's gone a bit wrong!

to Heliodromus,
Some additions. As I said, the pictures I attached to my previous post are those of an authentic medallion showing the same pair of dies as the fake medallion, which happens to be in Paris, BnF (by the way, Heliodromus, could you consider precising the origin of these pics [©Sylviane Estiot, Centre national de la recherche scientifique, France] or at least ask for permission to reuse...).
This doesn't mean that the fake has been cast on the Paris medallion, as you suppose. I know at least 4 other medallions from the same pair of dies from public collections (including fac-similés, as the curators of public coin cabinets in the 19th cent. had the habit to exchange metallic copies of Roman medallions in order to fill in the vacuums on their trays, or just exempli gratia): each one could be the candidate prototype for the fake.
The presumed fake has a pedigree from some decades (see Oslo Myntgalleri AS 28, May, 6 2022, lot 401). For this medallion type: Gnecchi II, p. 124-125,10; pl. 124,5 (rather numerous medallions of Diocletianus sole emperor, from different dies). Final remark : the obverse die of the MONETA AVG (Augusti) medallions we are talking about is still in use to strike MONETA AVGG (Augustorum, i.e. Diocletianus and Maximianus) medallions, see die link Gn. pl. 124,5 and 124,8.
S. Estiot

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Diocletian in strange paludamentum
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2022, 11:29:08 am »
I apologize for using the photograph without permission - I hadn't realized it was yours.

Quote
This doesn't mean that the fake has been cast on the Paris medallion, as you suppose. I know at least 4 other medallions from the same pair of dies from public collections (including fac-similés, as the curators of public coin cabinets in the 19th cent. had the habit to exchange metallic copies of Roman medallions in order to fill in the vacuums on their trays, or just exempli gratia): each one could be the candidate prototype for the fake.

Yes, although that specific coin does match in terms of the missing area of beaded border at the bottom of the reverse.

I see the BnF alone has three coins from this die pair (and another from the obverse), including a cast copy (bottom coin, below), even though they say it was struck!

https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb45877100z

It's interesting to see some sort of residue on the reverse of the BnF/Gallica photo of that coin, not present on your much nicer photo!


 

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