Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Gordian Antoninianus  (Read 1091 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alex S2

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Gordian Antoninianus
« on: August 22, 2021, 07:45:38 pm »
Dear Forum Members,

Below you can see the collage of obverse and reverse of 3 different photos, of what supposed to be the very same coin:

1) The photo of the coin originally posted here in January 2018 (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=114381) in order to discuss the extra small “s” in the legend of the reverse. This coin was previously purchased from Heritage Auctions.
2) The photo of the same coin after it developed dark patina from laying on a particleboard for 2+ years in my workshop, right before it was sold to a current owner.
3) The photo of the coin cropped from the certificate, issued by The National Museum of the History of Ukraine, that concluded the coin to be inauthentic, based on the argument of the style of the letters, by comparison with similar examples from the museum collection. And also concluded that the coin is cast!

So I would like to ask you the following questions:

1) Is the coin #1 and #2 the very same coin? I know this is the same coin, because I purchased it from Heritage and it was laying in my workshop with zero chance of anybody replacing it with anything else. But what if I’m lying after all? What if I indeed used the coin #1 as a prototype to make the coin #2? If that was the case, how would I do it? Is there really a technology in existence that could achieve such results?

2) Is the coin #2 and #3 the very same coin? At first I didn’t suspect anything, until I merged the photos and compared them against each other. And there are some visible differences in my opinion.

3) Could there be any truth to conclusions stated in the certificate?

I would highly appreciate any thoughts and opinions on these matters.

Thanks a lot for taking your time to look.

All the best,
Alex

P.S. I already posted the above message in the original thread (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=114381), but decided to move the discussion here, since the original topic was the discussion of an odd legend on the reverse and not authenticity.

Offline Akropolis

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2762
    • Akropolis Ancient Coins
Re: Gordian Antoninianus
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2021, 07:56:40 pm »
#2 and #3 look identical to me.
Please provide the weight and photos of the edge.
PeteB

Offline Alex S2

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: Gordian Antoninianus
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2021, 08:09:28 pm »
#2 and #3 look identical to me.
Please provide the weight and photos of the edge.
PeteB

Hi PeteB,

Could you also please look into these photos?

The weight is 3.8 on all of the examples.

I don't have the opportunity to take photos of the edge as I am no longer the owner of the coin, but current owner who purchased the coin from me and gave it to for the authentication to the museum posted some photos in the original thread: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=114381.msg747936#msg747936

Offline Akropolis

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2762
    • Akropolis Ancient Coins
Re: Gordian Antoninianus
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2021, 08:26:37 pm »
“ The weight is 3.8 on all of the examples.”
All the more reason to confirm that they are one and the same.
The areas you circle appear to be a BIT different, but that is easily a function of lighting and cleaning.
PeteB

Offline Alex S2

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: Gordian Antoninianus
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2021, 09:26:00 pm »
“ The weight is 3.8 on all of the examples.”
All the more reason to confirm that they are one and the same.
The areas you circle appear to be a BIT different, but that is easily a function of lighting and cleaning.
PeteB

What about let's say these 3 particular areas pointed with black arrows? They seem to be a bit more different of what can be expected from just lighting and cleaning?

As I stated earlier, there is no doubt for me, that the coin #1 and #2 is the same, because it was with me all of the time from the beginning till it developed the patina and the moment I sold it.

Also the museum expert who issued the certificate to the current owner believes that the coin #3, that she was reviewing undoubtedly a different coin than #1

Offline Callimachus

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
Re: Gordian Antoninianus
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2021, 10:43:00 pm »
Since you are considering authenticity here, consider this:

Near the end of your January 2018 posting, Curtis Clay says this: "The coin looks authentic to me."
I doubt the National Museum of the History of Ukraine has anyone on its staff equal in experience and knowledge to that of Mr. Clay.


Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12102
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Gordian Antoninianus
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2021, 12:07:58 pm »
They are all the same coin.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline timka

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 805
Re: Gordian Antoninianus
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2021, 02:22:11 pm »
Since you are considering authenticity here, consider this:

Near the end of your January 2018 posting, Curtis Clay says this: "The coin looks authentic to me."
I doubt the National Museum of the History of Ukraine has anyone on its staff equal in experience and knowledge to that of Mr. Clay.


Dear All,

I would like to step in, as I realized there is a discussion taking place about this fake coin that I owning now. I purchased this coin, and once I received and held in hand I immediately realized it is fake coin, not Roman or Antioch mint coin for sure. There are clear cast sign on surface and the edge is polished and worked-out in several places. The fabric is modern, alloy is not crystalized, one can bent it , the coin is not crisp and it wont  brake as true antoninianus. With all respect to Curtis Clay, I do not agree with him for the reason he did not hold the coin in his hands. I was also fooled the same way by the pics. In hand the coin screams fake immediately. Hope, you Callimachus, and Curtis Clay too, would agree that no one can authenticate such questionable coin without holding the coin in hands. So, I saw it and I held it, and Im convinced it is fake.

I showed the pictures to Ilya Prokopov. He replied it could be 19th century fake or whatever else, but he could not conclude for sure without seeing the actual coin. Unfortunately, he could not take it for authentication as Bulgaria has tricky import/export laws for such cases.

In addition,  please keep in mind that this coins has abnormal extra S on the reverse. Unfortunately, this extra S is not about uniqueness of this coin, but this is another feature of sophisticated counterfeit.

So that I applied the coin to the National Museum of History in Ukraine, and I got an official expert conclusion that the coin is not ancient, and it is fake.

The sellers does not want to return money, so that I will sue him in the court. Local legislation implies criminal responsibility for fraud in this very case, as lawyer advised.

Herewith I attach couple of the pics of true antoniniani along with this  fake (last coin), so you can see how its edge looks in comparison with true coins. 
 
Again, with all respect to all involved- you cannot judge without seeing and holding the actual coin! Ask anyone in authentication business if they can issue certificate based on the pictures.

thank you for your time.


Offline Din X

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1262
Re: Gordian Antoninianus
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2021, 05:29:40 pm »
The pictures in the other thread from Alex S2 are much better than the ones of  timka.
I think  timka suspects the coin to be a case fake " you can see how its edge looks in comparison with true coins"
What is wrong with the edge?
Edges can look different and especially for different emissions they can look different, so the edge must be compared with many authentic denarii and of course Denarii of this Antioch Gordian emissions.
The coin does not look cast and if there is a cast fake there must be a mother and often there will be twins.
I am very much confident that this coins shown on Alex S2 pictures is authentic, if I am not very sure about something I am generally silent, to be wrong sucks and is bad for reputations so I do my best to avoid this.
There is a very very very good Expert for this Gordian coins he is active in German numismatik forum but can be contaced here, he has about 1000 of these Gordian coins

https://www.colleconline.com/fr/users/269/briac

That it is impossible to authenticate coins based on pictures is not true, it always depends on circumstances, I have heard this before, that you can not authenticate coins based on pictures, but interestingly this Expert (auction houses or dealers) who are telling this very often and very loud have from time to time cast fakes or other obvious fakes in listed which can be easily recognized as such even on pictures and then they have to withdrawn fakes which have fooled them in hand. You have to realize that dealers and auction houses have the coins in hand and that they are in most cases notified by collectors and experts who can tell based on pictures that they are fake.
Having the coin in hand will not help if the one authenticating person is not good in authenticating or not familiar with this emission.
NGC is now offering authentication of coins based on ebay pictures, if picture is really bad they will tell of course that it is not possible but on good pictures they will do authentication and I think they will do this very reliable.

https://www.ngccoin.com/expert-review-ebay/

The most important thing is expertise of the one who is authenticating and if he is familiar with this coins or not, then very good picture of coin and its edge or coin in hand examined under magnification, then all required information like weight, die axis etc.

We have here very good pictures comparable with having the coin in hand under magnification and a very good but of course not perfect  expert Curtis (no one is perfect).

May I ask if the coin was expensive and if the coin is really something special becasue of this s?
Maybe I will be interested in buying it then you do not have to go to court.



Offline timka

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 805
Re: Gordian Antoninianus
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2021, 12:58:20 am »
Dear Din X,

Thank you for your post.

The coin costed 4000UAH, which is about 148 usd. I can easily part with this coin if you would like to have it. I know Joe does not allow selling over here, but I hope he can make an exception in this case for the sake of research and figuring out whereabouts of this coin.  From what I understand you are expert in counterfeited etc coins ,  and will be able to  research the coin when have it in hands. This will be very much appreciated.

Some comments to your post:

- I showed that coin along with the coins from the same period on my picture, both Rome and Antioch mint. The edge is not right. I held many many denarii and antoniniani in hands to be able to make comparison, and my conclusion that this is counterfeit.

- Cast or not cast, Im not expert in this field. May be it is pressed fake or something else. For me this coin is not from Rome or Antioch or any other ancient mint, so that is of not of interest for me.

- thank you for letting know about ngc online authentication service. This very coin is not good for this. I am able to authenticate with 99% probability based on pictures myself, as Im in this business for long and held many , many ancient coins with my hands. That coin fooled Curtis, it fooled me and it might have fooled you too based on the pictures. But all experts who held it in hands concluded this is not ancient made for sure ( edge, fabric, surface).

- Thank you for a German contact, I will try to get in touch with him if you wont pick up this coin.

Thank you
 

Offline Din X

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1262
Re: Gordian Antoninianus
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2021, 04:27:45 am »
You have PM.
Authentication is not always that easy, I have some coin of which I do not know if they are real not not in my collection, too.
Coins I bought from auction houses or dealers later turned out to be fake or misdesribed and coins, which I bought as fakes or in fake lots or fake collections turned out to be very certain authentic.
And for some coins which were in fake lots or fake collections I do not understand why they were condemned but I am not familiar with this emissions enough and maybe not even good enough to tell why and if they are really fake or maybe authentic.

The edge looks very convincing, I have seen such edges on authentic coins, I really like the transversely crack you have such a crack on the second coin from left side, too.
Of course cast  fakes will have such  transversely cracks , too if the authentic mother had some but then there should be other problems which all cast  fakes must have and there could be some problems which cast fakes often have but not necessarily must have.
I can not see any pearls, circular holes form gas/air bubbles, I can not see no soapy details but I can see very fine details which can hardly or not be captured on cast orand not sure if mint luster is still reamaining but it could be so. Cast + electrotype fakes can not have mint lustre, because it is a result of minting / striking.
There seem to be not file or polish marks on edge to remove casting seam and casting sprue on pictures but this can be sometimes hard to tell without seeing it under maginfication.
 
I have seen transversely cracks on edges of many Roman coins of different emperors now my question.
How and why  transversely cracks occur on edges of some Roman coins?
I guess it can have something to to with the minting process or maybe the planchets and their production.

Offline Din X

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1262
Re: Gordian Antoninianus
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2021, 06:00:28 am »
The coin is authentic, my wife has translated the expertise of Ukrainian museum, the main reason for condemnation were the letters, they compared the coin with 6 other Gorian coins in their museum collection and then another point was that they said different fabric than authentic coins (cast).
Both is not corrrect the letters are fine for Antioch mint and the coin is not cast.
The surface is damaged left to X letter of PAX and there you can see something through it, the alloy seems to be made of bad Silver which would not be so special for this coins and this time.
It is the same coin as the one of Alex S2 (same encrustrations on reverse A of PAX is encrustration etc.)
I can live with the coin, especially the preservation of the more important Reverse is ok.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity