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Author Topic: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.  (Read 5653 times)

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eduardo

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Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« on: August 20, 2005, 01:58:41 pm »
Hello
I got this Denarius of Caracalla with the following inscriptión in the reverse: INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.  I understand that it is Dea Celestis in a lion.   Could somebody tell me what was the reason or circunstance in which this coin was struck. Thanks
Eduardo

Offline Roma_Orbis

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2005, 02:22:41 pm »
Hello Eduardo,

  From a sale about an aureus with similar rev.
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=56694&AucID=59&Lot=905

"The statue on the reverse of this coin appeared on the roof of the shrine of Magna Mater on the spina of the Circus Maximus, and was used to represent the goddess of Carthage, Dea Caelestis (also equated with Cybele). The coin commemorates a major series of public works at Carthage, probably in connection with the water supply (see Hill, Monuments, pp. 88-89)."

Jérôme 8)

eduardo

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2005, 08:30:44 pm »
Thank you Jerome,

Your information has been most enlightning.  This is one of the reasons why I like Roman coins so much.  Rome comes alive when you look into the reverses of so many pieces.  After reading your post I went to some books to find out what was at the spina of the circus maximus.
Eduardo

http://www.grifomultimedia.it/adg/monrom/index.htm

eduardo

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2005, 09:23:18 pm »
With the intention of learning more about the coin and the history arround it I looked in a collection of engravings of Rome and found the following view of the Circus Maximus Of which I have taken this view of the spina where the Dea Caelestis can be seen on the lion but without the temple.
Eduardo

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2005, 11:20:43 pm »
   I believe that P.V. Hill, the source of the note in the Leu catalogue, is wrong about the spina.  The statue of Magna Mater on lion was set directly on the spina, as in Eduardo's engraving, not on top of a shrine on the spina.
   Moreover this is irrelevant to the coin type.  That was a common type of Magna Mater, and there is no likelihood that the INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH coin type was derived from THAT PARTICULAR IMAGE of her on the spina.
    The coin type poses two questions.  (1)  What other evidence do we have for the Dea Caelestis depicted riding on a lion like Magna Mater?  This is not her usual depiction.  (2)  Is the water flowing under the lion just one of the attributes of Dea Caelestis, or does it refer specifically to the favors granted to Carthage according to the legend?
    That water is the source of the old suggestion, repeated in the Leu catalogue on the authority of Hill, that Severus and Caracalla built an aqueduct for Carthage.  An unlikely conjecture that cannot be accepted without further proof, in my opinion!
Curtis Clay

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2005, 05:03:02 pm »
I've just found an interesting page written by B. Murphy on this rev. for Septimius Severus:
http://www.bpmurphy.com/COTW/week6.htm
where it appears that more than one type exist, with different attribute held by Cybele. So it seems clear indeed that this coin type can't be the representation of a particular statue, the one on the Circus Maximus spina as states Hill. Rather, it seems to be a common representation for Cybele, see for example a provincial bronze from Nicopolis for Sept. Sev. http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/lanz/114/00463q00.jpg or from Hadrianopolis for Gordian III http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/gorny/129/image00230.jpg or an engraved gemstone (intaglio) http://www.aztriad.com/perginum.html.

The representation is to be put in relation with the legend INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH. Then either
- this representation (Cybele and the water) is a personification of Carthage, and the favors of the emperor are not specifically related to waterways
 or
- Cybele alone is the deity of Carthage, and the water and source showed are related to some  aqueduct financed by the emperor.
Are there any historical accounts (or remaining inscriptions) of this works performed by Septimius? Hill seems clearly to speculate.

Jérôme 8)

Offline Adrianus

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2005, 05:44:03 pm »
Dear all,

Tying this into inscriptions is interesting. In the first paper I ever wrote (Journal of the British Archaeological Association 1997, pages 1-16) I cited an inscription from Carvoran, a fort on the line of Hadrian's Wall. This is a metrical hymn inscribed into stone and set up by Marcus Caecilius Donatianus, a prefect who owed his position to Sept Severus' patronage. It is reckoned to be in honour of Julia Domna comparing her to the Dea Caelestis (which would certainly fit the context). It begins:

The Virgin in her heavenly place rides upon the lion; bearer of corn, inventor of law, founder of cities, by whose gift it comes that we know the Gods, and therefore she is the Mother of the gods, Peace, Virtue, the Syrian Goddess, weighing life and laws in her balance. Syria has sent the constellation which we see in the heavens to be worshipped. Thence have we all learned...

Interesting to get epigraphy linking so closely to a coin type, albeit that the type is used for Caracalla in this instance. Tomlin in his commentary to Roman Inscriptions of Britain 2nd ed raises doubts as to this identifying the (Syrian) Doman with the Great Goddess but there is another dedication to Domna as Caelestis from Mainz (CIL xiii, 6771). I may have the odd offprint packed away - if anyone wants one (first come first served), drop me a message. Given other Severan coin types such as the SAECVLI FELICITAS showing [?Julia as] Isis holding Horus, surely this is just another part of the Severans playing at being gods/goddesses? ;)

Regards,

Adrianus

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2005, 08:40:37 pm »
Adrianus,
       I don't believe the INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH goddess is meant to be Julia Domna, rather she represents Carthage which is named in the legend
       Similarly the rare INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN ITALIAM type, also occurring for Sept. Sev. and Caracalla at around the same time as the IN CARTH type, depicts a normal Italia seated on globe, whom we have no reason whatever to associate with Julia Domna!
       The inscription you quote, however, is interesting.  I would indeed like an offprint of your article and am sending you my address by PM!
       From a number of encyclopedia articles, I find that depictions of Dea Caelestis/Virgo Caelestis/Juno Caelestis riding a lion are known from Rome, even though Tanit, the original Carthaginian goddess, was not depicted that way.  There is a statue of Tanit from North Africa where she herself has the head of a lion, however!
       I was excited when I read in Roscher's Lexikon der Mythologie that the Syrian Astarte, from whom Tanit descended, had close connections to WATER, both in her myths and in the placement of her temples and altars on islands or alongside ponds or lakes.
       However I don't think this can explain the water in the IN CARTH type, because this seems to be the ONLY known representaion of Dea Caelestis or Tanit associated with water, which was evidently NOT a standard element of her iconography.
       As to what benefits Severus and Caracalla bestowed upon Carthage, I believe we know they built an odeon for Carthage and allowed the city to celebrate games.
       If I remember correctly, there are ruins of an aqueduct at Carthage, but no evidence that it was built by the Severans.
Curtis Clay

Offline Goodies

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2005, 02:04:59 pm »
hi @eduardo, I can confirm what Roma_Orbis said from another source too. About a Septimius Severus with a similar reverse Rudnik makes the following comment:

Quote
It is one in the INDVLGENTIA series - advertising and celebrating through this minor Roman goddess the emperor's "indulgence", or merciful acts for the public good - and in this case referring to the construction of an aqueduct in Carthage, of which Dea Caelestis was a patron deity

The personification "Indulgentia" herself is not on this coin. She is not a goddess, it should be read as a more general term, the modern translation is "forgiveness". During the reign of Trajanus, it was used in conjunction with the emperor name ("Indulgentia of Trajanus") to signify his politics of Alimenta. This was a monthly attribution of the state, to help children's education in Gallia (and other activities/provinces). In this case, when we follow Rudnik, the "Indulgentia" could heve been the construction works on the Aquaduct at Carthago ! These cost a lot of money !

 :)
Lex

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2005, 02:30:32 pm »
Lex,
     I have already stated above that the old "aqueduct" idea is a conjecture only that needs confirmation from a study of the sources.  That another coin dealer has read it somewhere and repeated it in his listing adds, I am afraid, nothing to its validity!
     There is no Indulgentia in the coinage of Trajan.  Are you perhaps thinking of an inscription, or the coinage of Hadrian which does include that type?
Curtis Clay

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2005, 04:04:42 pm »
Indeed, no coins, the inscriptions about Trajanus' Alimenta were read on bronze tablets found in The Netherlands. It was just to give an example of the "good attribute" that Indulgentia is, in this case the politics of Alimenta.

My source is a Thesis in Dutch, I cite..

Quote
Beide bovengenoemde tabulae (T44 en T127) en ook die van Pomponius Bassus (T39) prijzen Trajanus om zijn “indulgentia”, maar nadere toelichting valt er niet uit af te lezen.[143] Ook de antieke geschiedschrijvers zwijgen hierover. Moderne historici hebben veel werk verricht teneinde de intentie van de keizer te achterhalen. Het programma omvatte twee elementen: het toekennen van geldsommen aan grondbezitters aan de ene kant en het opvoeden van kinderen aan de andere kant. Het is daarmee niet verwonderlijk dat twee fundamenteel verschillende visies zich ontwikkelden. Ofwel ziet men de alimenta als onderdeel van een nataliteitspolitiek, ofwel als een aspect van een landbouwpolitiek

My translation (I am not so good at this  ;) so don't laugh)

"Both tabulae praise Trajanus' Indulgentia of (applying Alimenta), but no other conclusions can be drawn as yet. There are no antique sources describing it. Modern historians have done a lot of research into the intent of the emperor with the program. The program consisted of the allowance of sums of money to land-owners for specific purposes, and the fonding of houses to educate children. Following either view, "Alimenta" should be regarded als part of nation-building tactics, or as an aspect of agricultural politics."

There are indeed no coins with INDVLGENTIA of Trajan. Fact is, that Trajan and emperors to follow followed a kind of "social politics", to integrate the provinces more tightly with the empire as a whole. So, "Indulgentia", like "Aeternitas" for that matter (eternal) is a good or sympathetic  attribute given to the emperor: in that sense, Alimenta was one of the "Indulgentiae" of Trajan.

 :)
Lex



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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2005, 05:02:05 pm »
Curtis,

  I had not noticed the existence of the INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN ITALIAM rev., which makes me think that the types are intended to represent personifications of the city or the province to which an indulgentia was granted; Italy is represented by the usual type, and Carthage by its main deity above a stream of water intended to be a characteristic of the city.

Jérôme 8)

eduardo

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2005, 12:17:55 pm »
Hello and thanks to all,
The knowledge you all have demonstrated is wonderfull.  I just feel like a first grader. 
Gerome, I will like to read your article on the document at Hadrians Wall. If it is OK with you and you still have a copy or photocopy I will send you my son's address in Austin Tx so you don't have to send it all the way to Perú.
I have found an article about Femenine deities in Hispania and their eastern origens, which goes into the Tanit, Dea Caelestis, Cybeles and some other conections that find worth reading. 

http://www.labherm.filol.csic.es/Sapanu1998/Actas/HoysPove/HoysPov.htm

Thank you all again
Eduardo

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2005, 09:29:30 pm »
Ave!

Remember that I'm a moron, but I always believed that this issue refered to the construction of a new acqueduct for Carthage. But the real "kicker", at least for me, is the INDVLGENTIA on the reverse. God knows I'm no Latin expert, not even close, but I sense this as a rather smug interpetation as "At the Emperor's Whim" as if he just raised a lazy hand and the deed was done. Hubris!

K
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eduardo

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2005, 12:30:24 pm »
Hi Hubris.

You have a point there, but is not that what politicians always do?
Eduardo

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2005, 01:22:19 pm »
Andreas Reich

Claven2

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2005, 09:08:13 pm »
Is it not worthy of note that on some versions of the INDVLGENTIA IN CARTA reverse clearly show the water flowing out of a pile of rocks or rocky hillside?  Perhaps it commemorates completion of an aquaduct tunnel through a mointain or hillside?  Such things are not uncommon - many aqueducts were carved partially through small hills or mountains. 

Could also mean the location of a new spring as water source IMHO. 

I do think the water is significant as I've not seen the Carthage deity or personification in any other context associated with flowing water???

Albert

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2005, 02:25:23 am »
Thank you all for the wonderful thread. It seems to raise more questions than it answers. But that is what learning is all about ;). It does make me wonder though. Did the average Roman understand the meaning of most coin reverse designs? Would the pleb on the street know what this coin was telling him?

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2005, 03:12:34 am »
A useful complement for this discussion is in
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=23222.0
with a valuable reference to Barry Murphy article on types of this coin.

Claven2

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2005, 09:40:58 am »
Quote from: Albert on November 06, 2005, 02:25:23 am
Thank you all for the wonderful thread. It seems to raise more questions than it answers. But that is what learning is all about ;). It does make me wonder though. Did the average Roman understand the meaning of most coin reverse designs? Would the pleb on the street know what this coin was telling him?

I'm pretty certain the average pleb in Carthage knew what it meant! ;)

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2005, 06:12:08 pm »
There is a very rare initial version of this type, known on one denarius of Septimius and one of Caracalla, in which the goddess holds a drum and the legend is merely INDVLGENTA AVGG.
Apparently this was considered too obscure, and IN CARTH was very soon added in the exergue, specifying the recipient of the favor!
Curtis Clay

Claven2

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2005, 07:09:57 pm »
The idea of a drum or lightning (thunder) could well be relate to the roaring or rushing sound of fast flowing water through an aqueduct.  That would maybe seem to fit?

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Re: Caracalla INDVLGENTIA AVGG IN CARTH.
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2005, 07:23:17 pm »
    You are speculating.  We need actual evidence to progress with our interpretation of the type!
    The drum in the initial version of the type seems to derive from similar depictions of Cybele riding a lion and holding her normal drum.  The thunderbolt seems an obvious attribute for a goddess called Dea Caelestis, the Heavenly Goddess.
Curtis Clay

 

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