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Author Topic: Constantius II medaillon same dies as for heavy miliarense  (Read 144 times)

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Offline Din X

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This one is currently for sale as authentic in an auction closing 4 Jun 2022.
This medaillon shares the same dies with a heavy miliarense.
Interstingly I have a transfer die from the same obverse which is sadly incompatible because this suspected medaillon has details like parts of dotted border which are missing in my die :(

The eye looks starange I assume its apperance was changed due to slippage or double striking.
The heavy miliarense is missing details and has more wear than the medaillon so the heavy miliarense can not be the mother.
What is strang is that the heavy miliarense has no new details from the authentic mother, all details can already be found on the medaillon.
That means that the heavy miliarense could be a transfer die fake too and it could have been struck with same transfer die.
And the eye looks strange too on the heavy miliarense, which could mean that the eye was damaged there identically due to slippage or double striking, and this would be a huge problem because completely identical individual characteristics from striking should not be present on 2 coins from the same dies. But it is hard to tell for sure from pictures especially becasue details were removed on the heavy miliarense by wear or corrosion.

Picture 1 top medaillon
Picture 2-4 same coin heavy miliarense
Picture 5 heavy miliarense (not sure about authenticity, no new details)
Picture 6 shows same double striking, lippage under nose and very similar or identical damage eye due to slippage or double striking



Offline Din X

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Re: Constantius II medaillon same dies as for heavy miliarense
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2022, 05:42:46 am »
my transfer die, I extra post it in a new post, becasue it was NOT used to strike the medaillon ot the heavy miliarense.
It only shows that transfer dies exist of this type.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Constantius II medaillon same dies as for heavy miliarense
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2022, 07:01:28 am »
Thanks. Very convincing and instructive.
Lech Stępniewski
NOT IN RIC
Poland


Offline Din X

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Re: Constantius II medaillon same dies as for heavy miliarense
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2022, 09:58:56 am »
These ebay fakes were most likely struck or pressed with my transfer die, they have indentical die flaws as on my transfer die.
They were struck before some metal brok out of my transfer die (die flaw) below the T at about 10´o clock.
These die flaws are not present/visible on the 2 heavy miliarenses sold at aucitons and the medaillon.

Offline DzikiZdeb

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Re: Constantius II medaillon same dies as for heavy miliarense
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2022, 01:56:00 am »
my transfer die, I extra post it in a new post, becasue it was NOT used to strike the medaillon ot the heavy miliarense.
It is a pleasure to read someone with such knowledge.

Could you please tell me what technology was used to create this transfer die? As I understand it, the next step is to create a die that has a mirror image of the above and will serve directly for striking fakes. What technology is the second die made of? If it is similar, why not make at the beginning a die that will have a mirror image?

Offline Din X

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Re: Constantius II medaillon same dies as for heavy miliarense
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2022, 03:40:22 am »
I have mirrored the picture of my transfer die for better comparison.
If you look for the file name of my transfer die you will see that I named it mirrored, in my second post.




Offline DzikiZdeb

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Re: Constantius II medaillon same dies as for heavy miliarense
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2022, 08:32:03 am »
I have mirrored the picture of my transfer die for better comparison.
If you look for the file name of my transfer die you will see that I named it mirrored, in my second post.
Now everything is clear except the technology of execution: as I understand it, this is not cast or electrotype. So how was it done?

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Constantius II medaillon same dies as for heavy miliarense
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2022, 08:44:11 am »
By the way, the type itself (a vota legend variant of RIC 132) is genuine.

Here's (top coin) one that was posted on FORVM a long time back - I don't know the source, and appears genuine. It's a heavy miliarense, weighing 5.13g.

Below that are examples of RIC 132 (heavy miliarense, 24mm 5.24g), and (bottom coin) a lighter miliarense (4.46g) variant of RIC 132.

Note that on all these coins victory stands right, head left, whereas on the two transfer dies (?) she stands left.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Constantius II medaillon same dies as for heavy miliarense
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2022, 09:56:00 am »
Note that on all these coins victory stands right, head left, whereas on the two transfer dies (?) she stands left.

Are you suggesting that there is no transfer die, no authentic coin as prototype, only modern die made from scratch which was only loosely inspired by authentic type?
Lech Stępniewski
NOT IN RIC
Poland

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Constantius II medaillon same dies as for heavy miliarense
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2022, 10:11:00 am »
It's possible, although the style of the fake's reverse does look fairly convincing (ancient, not modern).

It's also interesting that the fake's reverse copies the cross-in-wreath positioning from RIC 132 (above wing, see NY Sale coin above), while the genuine VOT XXXV MVLT XXXX has a much larger wreath positioned interrupting the wing. The fake's reverse also copies RIC 132 in that the figure to the right of victory is a bearded captive with back turned, while on the genuine type (on AC Search) it's instead a turreted female facing victory and holding one knee.

Edit: Fake's obverse also has hair engraving style (in "bands/waves" vs just strands) from RIC 132.

 

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