FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
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He keeps selling these Mark Antony Legionary denarii after being warned. Last week it was a Julius Caesar brockage rejected by NGC as a counterfeit.
DT
http://www.ebaystores.com/numismatiklanz
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I have been wondering for years when Lanz would be nominated. Adding them to the NFSL means we think that nobody should buy from Lanz on eBay, not ever, because they are a notorious fraud. Opinions?
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Unfortunately I agree.
He just doesn´t stop selling blatant forgeries, although knowing the coins to be false.
No one can stop him, as he quit all dealer´s associations.
Regards
Klaus
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I believe he is the essence of notorious. Is there anyone else as well known for selling fakes?
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"The sellers on this list knowingly and intentionally sell fakes."
Lanz is neither knowingly nor intentionally selling fakes, because if Lanz is notified he generally always is withdrawing fakes and "knowingly" would mean that this person gets bulletproof or good and convincing evidences that the coin must be fake.
If you write, "This coin is fake", "this coin is a published fake or die match to published fake" or "Expert or authentication service thinks it is fake" , without mentioning why they are supposed to be fakes you can be sure many dealers and auction houses will not withdraw them and ignore your message!
I have warned a huge US auction house too (it has an authentication service ^^), that their Syracuse drachm is a transfer die fake, I have the dies with a die break only present in my transfer die, this die break is not in ancient dies.
So I could connect my transfer die with the fake 100%.
They refused to withdraw the fake and sold it !!!
They said that they have the coin in hand and patina is old and I do not have the coin in hand so I can not know and who I am to tell them such things (so very polemic and aggresive message).
You can be sure that I will not buy form them again and that their catalogues the new ones will find their way directly to waste bin (the old ones are already in waste bin)
I wrote them that they are rumors that this forgers would use ancnient coins as planchets or they managed to make artificial patinas very close to authentic patinas.
They did not care!
But they did withdrawn the very obvoious Aitna cast fake, of which I wrote them in another email and which should not fool amateurs but which fooled them even when they had it in hand. ;D
And they had to withdraw a very obvious pressed Demetrios Tetradrachm from Beirut school. :tongue:
I have notified them in past, too about fakes and published fakes t and some they have wthdrawn and some not.
So may I nominate them, they sold knowingly fakes?
Lanz would have withdrawn such fakes, if being notified and if you have good evidence for them being fake.
Lanz had 2 Lipanoff fakes recently in its ebay auction, it seems like someone has warned him about the CLODIUS ALBINUS and so this fake has been withdrawn but no one seems to recognize the other Lipanoff
Albinus withdrawn
https://www.ebay.de/itm/303979889080?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=707-53477-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-5245
It seems like no one told him about Octavian (Aplustre of the Lipanoff fake is very wrong and strange engraved)
https://www.ebay.de/itm/373551365130?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=707-53477-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-5192
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-10560
Back to the legionary Denarii, I worte already why I suspect them to be fake but this are only arguments and they are not bulletproof so I understand when someone still has a good feeling, they have fooled other dealers and auciton houses, too.
Dominic T are you now a leginoary denarii expert?
Do you know how many fakes are in Lanz auctions and how high this % is compared to other dealers and auction houses?
So if his amount of fakes is maybe a little bit worse than average, there are auction houses with higher % of fakes and he is only withdrawing fakes if he thinks that they are fakes like other aution houses and dealers,too.
I think it would be only fair if we would then nominate auction houses who have same % or higher than Lanz and who are refusing to withdraw fakes , too (they of course think like Lanz that some fakes would be authentic).
Dominic T do you have experience concering the notificiation of auction houses and dealers about fakes and if yes how much and based on this experience have you never had the case that some were ignoring warnings and refused to withdraw fake even if you had much better evidence than we have in case of legionary?
We are all humans some have problems with legionary denarii others had for example recently problems ( 16-17.January 2021) with a Philip II, Le Rider 114 cast tetradrachm etc.
"Julius Caesar brockage rejected by NGC as a counterfeit"
I think that most ebay listings are done by his employees (I do not even know if he is still alive, his ancient art collection was sold recently on ebay at his store, so I am worried because he is old and we have Corona at the moment).
And fakes can slip through, we are all humans.
I assume he would have withdrawn the imho fake if he would have been notified about it and if you have evidence that the coin is fake.
And that the coin has been condemned by NGC is not helping except you know why they have condemend the coin and this arguments are conclusive/persuading.
I understand that some in USA think NGC is the best if it comes to authentication, I respect that Americans think so.
In Europe (collectors, many dealers and auciton houses) are more interested in arguments than in opinions no matter from whom they come.
This coin looks fake (hand cut dies), but to be honest I have never seen a fake from this dies before but he had other very suspicious coins with same style Otho, Caesar, Caesar,Clara, Titus etc in his ebay autions before (and I think a reputlable auction house has sold one of the Othos same dies too). But they all seem to be so far unpublished and the style is not always so bad if you compare to authentic specimens. And I think we had a thread about them in the past already here in forum.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/LANZ-ROME-AR-BROCKAGE-DENARIUS-C-IULIUS-CAESAR-INCUSE-CORONA-AUREA-RARE-TEZ596-/233979307844?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286
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Unfortuantely they have become worse as time has gone by. They seem to systematically mix in fakes (many of which are well know and published) with their stock. This is either due to a massive lack of basic diligence or malicious intent to fool the unwary. If it were my call alone to make I would add them to the list.
Martin
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I think that most collections and especially consignments of resellers offered to dealers or auction houses are polluted with fakes.
I think most consignments to Lanz are made by resellers who buy them at local markets and bringing them to Lanz to resell them with profit.
He is selling mainly cheap low quality coins and there the chance to have fakes in is much higher.
Some dealers and auction houses are better than others to remove this fakes.
I am certain, that in the original consignments brought to Lanz are many more fakes, which will be removed and not added to his ebay listings.
Auction houses who only offer expensive collections with old pedigree will have much less problems because there will be much less or no fakes in such collections.
When I started to collect seriously I went to Gorny to check my coins in hand, he did for free and found several cast fakes and fakes, buying form ebay is risky ^^.
He said that collections form collectors who buy form ebay are full with fakes.
I heard a story a collection was consigned to Leu, Silvia hurter has removed many fakes consignor was angry but catalogue was already printed consignor considered to go to other aution house to sell them but they could convince him/her to still sell through Leu.
The fakes have been sold later by another aution house who thought that they would be authentic or they did not care if authentic or not.
When I was arguing with Lanz about a coin I thought is fake that he was later withdrawing, he showed that he was always worried to not piss of the consignors, so he needs to be very sure that the coins he is withdrawing are really fake, if not the consignors (powersellers) can go to other sellers there are more than enough who care much less about fakes and reputation than Lanz. And Lanz would be bankrupt. I think he would never sell knowingly and intentionally fakes but I think he is worring much more about the consignors than the buyers because without consignors he will be bankrupt and his emplyees would lose their jobs too. But there will be always enough buyers. He is responsible for employees, too. He is a tough buisnessman and I think you have to be like this to survive in Munich with so many competitors.
I honestly doubt that this nomination will change anything even if he will be added, there will be always buyers as long as he is offering good material, I buy coins and not the seller.
And I would only and I am only buying coins from him of which I am 100% sure that they are authentic, because it seems to be difficult in some cases if it is not 100% clear if a coin is fake or not to get the money back.
If the ""The sellers on this list knowingly and intentionally sell fakes." will be changed for example to sellers who are offering many fakes or making clear that he is not intentinally is selling fakes then his nomination would be ok for me but we should look for the behavior of other dealers and auciton houses too and not only at Lanz who seem to be the manifestation a very bad coin seller for some and other see it more differentiated.
Again to pretend someone is selling knowingly fakes is a very hard accusation and is resulting in injurious falsehood.
It is always allowed to say facts, if it would be true three would not be any consequences for people who say so.
If it is not true it is something very serious and can have serious consequences at least in Germany.
"Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi"
It seems to be wrong what he is doing but others (dealers/auction houses) are doing the same and there it seems to be ok.
If two are doing the same it seems to be not always the same.
That is my problem.
The main problem is the word "intentionally" because I know he is not doing it intentionally, he really thinks that they are authentic.
This criteria should be removed and written offering many or too many fakes on ebay and sometimes problems for customers to get an refund for supposed fakes like MIthradates of which he thinks that they are authetnic, then he could be added to list.
If a dealer or auciton house is not withdrawing a fake it can be the fault of auction house or of the notifeier if he is not explaining and proving well enough that the coin must be fake.
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Unfortuantely they have become worse as time has gone by. They seem to systematically mix in fakes (many of which are well know and published) with their stock. This is either due to a massive lack of basic diligence or malicious intent to fool the unwary. If it were my call alone to make I would add them to the list.
Martin
Ebay shop is imho most likely done mainly or only by his employees and they are not good or we can even say bad in detecting fakes.
Incompetence or "massive lack of basic diligence" if it comes to fakes is of course not good and a serious problem.
At leat you tried to word it much more objective than others but the problem is here again the word "intentionally" which is not true here.
"The sellers listed below are notorious fake sellers. We do not list sellers that make an occasional error. The sellers on this list knowingly and intentionally sell fakes. ..... These sellers are criminals and frauds."
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=18502.0
And of course the US auction house should not be added to nfs (they would never sell intentionally fakes), I only wanted to make clear that others are not always withdrawing fakes even if you have very good evidence for because they still can honestly think that they are not fake.
And this guy there was very rude, so I will not help and buy from them again, that is all.
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As remember correctly i mailed lanz 2x about a fake and about a tooled coin, with he did not mention it was tooled
i cant remember about the tooled coin, but the fake coin was removed
He does not belong on our list i believe, his name does pop up every now and then selling bad coins
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Once bought a coin in one of his mail bid sale that turned out to be fake. He did accepted the return and refunded me, but later resold the coin on ebay...
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If a real expert opinion is important to you, here's what Barry Murphy wrote in 2019 :"Lanz sells a lot of real coins. The problem is he also sell quite a few forgeries and repaired coins and is normally not willing to give a refund, at least that’s the story that’s been repeated by quite a few collectors in various forums. He quit the IAPN to avoid having to give a refund on a $30,000 fake."
And I'm sorry you are "extremely insulted" by my words about ASD, but didn't you publicly told it on another forum ? And by the way, you lost all credibility since you admitted that Lanz gave you coins in the past and also stop hiding behind a fake identity; tell your real name if you want to defend the man.
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Once bought a coin in one of his mail bid sale that turned out to be fake. He did accepted the return and refunded me, but later resold the coin on ebay...
I'm not sure where I stand on Lanz for the NFSL, but if he accepted an acknowledged fake coin back and then re-sold it as genuine, that is a serious ethical lapse.
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If a real expert opinion is important to you, here's what Barry Murphy wrote in 2019 :"Lanz sells a lot of real coins. The problem is he also sell quite a few forgeries and repaired coins and is normally not willing to give a refund, at least that’s the story that’s been repeated by quite a few collectors in various forums. He quit the IAPN to avoid having to give a refund on a $30,000 fake."
And I'm sorry you are "extremely insulted" by my words about ASD, but didn't you publicly told it on another forum ? And by the way, you lost all credibility since you admitted that Lanz gave you coins in the past and also stop hiding behind a fake identity; tell your real name if you want to defend the man.
I am Amentia (German forum and forgerynetwork) and Din x (here) I was here before at forvm with nebukadnezar nick I and lamoneta (baka) and I was at cfdl many years ago for a short time (Amentia) !
And on some French and German boards but I did not post there or do not remember to post there, sometimes registration is needed to see pictures so I registered but I think I have deleted most accounts and on another us board Amentia have forgotten name of it.
And I made a mistake on German board so some there know my identity :)
Who is "lolli", what the f. are you talking about?
I would never defend someone if I would not think he/she is a good guy/woman and honest.
Dominic T I would never defend you no matter how much you would offer me I have honor I only defend people who I do not respect (you insulted me badly).
I have posted more than enough fakes of Lanz to a German board to show that I am not connected to him in any way ( I post fakes there because we have greally great members there who then will notify the auction houses and dealers, I hate to do this to be the sucker who brings bad news and who has to argue with some of them till they will withdraw them and to warn there members about this fakes).
The question is not who I am, the question is if LANZ is intentionally is selling fakes, which is necessary to be added to the nfs list, which is for criminals who sell intentionally and knowingly fake and this is obviously not true for Lanz!
I doubt that Barry Murphy would ever be so stupid to say that Lanz is selling intentionally fakes, he would rather say like you quoted that there are fakes in his listings in the eyes of some too many and that some seem to have problems (I guess he is referring Mithradates) to get their money back. This would be true and allowed to say, it is allowed to say facts.
But to make false defamatory statement (ASD, implying Lanz is criminal who sells intentionally fakes, by adding him to a list for such people)could be actually a case for court, the victims needn´t to go to court but they could do.
When I wrote LANZ in past about fakes he has almost always withdrawn them and I have watched his auctions (I bought from him several coins within the last two years) and there have been other fakes in his aucitons I did not know or I was too lazy to notify him and they have been withdrawn, too and never have been relisted again. Again if he honestly thinks that some fakes are authentic he will sell them as authentic, except he is notified and the notifier has good evidence that they are fake and he is human and can be very rarely but he can be ignorant too.
But others (auction houses and dealers) do sometimes the same, they sell coins which they think, that they are authentic and sometimes they think that they are authentic even if they have been notified that they are fake, because they are still thinking that they are authentic, why they do so I often can not understand especially if the evidences for them being fake are very strong.
It is of course a serious problem and annoying if dealers or experts of auction houses are igonrant and not withdrawing fakes after being notified but I would never think or pretend that they do this intentionally , I always think they do this due to less knowledge and experience concerning fake or incompetence.
Again NFS list if for criminals who sell intentionally fakes, if someone honestly thinks that some fakes are authentic he is maybe an ignorant or incompetent but not a criminal who is knowingly and intentionally selling fakes.
And I think that it is a fact Lanz has almost always withdrawn fakes in the past after being notified and that he did not relisted them anywhere (exception Minos where the coin has been relisted, I assume he thought it is authentic and so resold it and maybe other cases of which I do not know).You can find some fakes withdrawn by Lanz which have not been relisted for example in fake reports and forgerynetwork and some forums.
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@Din X The coin that I've returned (and that he later resold) was condemned by Barry Murphy (amongst others) and is widely recognized as a forgery (several others popped out since then). If he believed when he sold it back 4 years later that it was genuine (I doubt it), he's not the expert that he claims to be. If he's not worthy of the NFSL, given all the acknowledged fakes, tooled coins and highly doubtful material he's been selling these past years, no one is imo...
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@Din X The coin that I've returned (and that he later resold) was condemned by Barry Murphy (amongst others) and is widely recognized as a forgery (several others popped out since then). If he believed when he sold it back 4 years later that it was genuine (I doubt it), he's not the expert that he claims to be. If he's not worthy of the NFSL, given all the acknowledged fakes, tooled coins and highly doubtful material he's been selling these past years, no one is imo...
I think he did the real auctions himself.
I assume that he possibly did not even knew that it has been relisted on ebay because ebay listings are most likely been done buy employees and they are missing too many fakes sadly the last years :(
If the coin was fake and he was notifeid that it is fake including evidence that it must be fake, then the coin must be withdrawn and not relisted (this needn´t to be discussed because humans can make mistakes some make more some less).
But again if you write NGC or Barry Murphy think coin is fake without mentioning why, many will possibly not withdraw the coin, if your name is Max Mustermann or Mr xyz and you have persuading evidence that the coin is fake most will most likely withdraw the coin.
Some care more for convincing evidence than for names and this is my fortune if not I would nt have been able to get any fake withdrawn, I have no fames name but presuading evidence if it comes to fakes.
If the coin was really fake and he has been norified with good explanation why it is fake, he of course should not have relisted it after it has been withdrawn but we do not really know if he knew that it was relisted.
NFSL is for criminals who are selling intentionally fakes, you what to say he is doing this intentionally?
Even if you notify dealers or auction houses about a fake it needn´t mean that they are really convinced by the arguments and so they can still honestly think the coins are authentic.
And even if a mistake was made in Minos case we have to think how many coins he is selling and that if you sell so much much can go wrong and humans make mistakes but he has withdrawn almost all fakes in the past after being notified and never realisted them, this should be prove enough that he is not doing it intentionally.
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I am Amantia...
Who is "lolli", what the f. are you talking about ?
Get some help "Daniel", please get some help.
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A couple of thoughts...
I deleted a couple of posts. Let stick to the number 1 rule, BE NICE.
I really don't care if Lanz is or is not personally looking at the coins. We are evaluating an eBay store, not a man.
I actually just looked at this store for the first time in many many years. They have over 250,000 feedbacks!!! That takes selling a whole lot of coins. There is no way anyone could sell that many coins without fakes slipping past.
If they withdraw coins when given good evidence a coin is fake, they are probably not a notorious fraud.
I have received emails and messages from people over the years telling me coins were fake that were utter nonsense. I am sure Lanz get many of them. You cannot expect a dealer to withdraw a coin every time someone he does not know says it is fake.
I have sold coins that Barry Murphy said were fake. He can be wrong. And in this case he was. I was sure they were good and sent them to Sear, who also said they were good. By the way, Barry only saw the photos.
It is possible to sell a coin that is an obvious fake or even one they was previously withdrawn due to a simple or careless mistake. That still is not proof of fraud.
Right now, I am leaning against adding them to the NFSL.
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This one is a tough call. I myself noticed him about fake coins in the past with the NGC references, but I know he doesn't trust this firm at all. Maybe he would have react differently with another third party ? It's also possible that his staff is playing a role in the "mistakes". Anyway the purpose here was to warn collectors to be very careful: know the coin or know the DEALER... I fully trust your judgment on this decision Joe.
DT
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Perhaps what is needed here is a "psdc" list - persistent seller of doubtful coins - particularly returned doubtful coins.
Although is Lanz any worse than other high volume sellers in this regard?
Ross G.
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Joe, just had a quick look at coryssa.org for his past sales (I usually keep away from his listings). What do you think of his early/larger imperial AEs ? A good number of them seems to be tooled at various degrees imo (usually described as lightly smoothed, at best)...
https://www.coryssa.org/index.php/subcategory/view/page/0/period/roman_emperor/country/lanz/list_order/date/list_order_dir/desc
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Dominic T in internet everyone can write anything and it is full of fake news and wrong information.
If you trust everything written in interent you need some serious help^^
I can create accounts on different forums with nick Dominic T and pretending I am you, will I be you or a troll or someone who is doing this out of whatever reason?
And you can of course look in text for often used words or mistakes and phrases copying them to make it harder to detect.^^
And using all infomation and material about him available in internet.
But here is the point this guy/or woman how plays me can not have any pictures or information about me which I have not posted already at some boards, because he she it is not me.
I have posted all my fakes and pictures of fake dies to different boards and members who asked for them and even my real coin collection is available at on board, so this can be used by anyone.
I picture of one of my coins or fakes, which I never posted somewhere and never gave to anywhere and which can not be found anywhere in internet but which belongs to me would be a problem, this is not the case here because I am not this guy/woman.
Next point IP address my posts here and on other boards is a German IP address, which you can be traced with geotrace ip to an area in Germany this other guy/woman can not have an IP address from this area in Germany.
Why should someone do this, maybe he / she is bored and has too much time or thinks this could be fun, some teenagers like trolling.
There is no evidence that is connecting me with this guy "lolli" He can not have any thing from me not freely available in internet and he must have different IP Address because it is not me.
I really think this could be fun to pretned I am you, but I am not sure if it will work if I will tell that I will do so because members here are active on different boards and I am too old for this and my time to precious but still it sounds like fun and I would possibly have done as teenager.
And I would never post my real name here because some some dealers / auction houses and fake sellers are not happy about what I am doing!
"Anyway the purpose here was to warn collectors to be very careful"
I think that they are enough post about him everywhere, so people know that you should be cautious when buying from them due to the already mentioned problems.
It is totally legitimate if Lanz is doing something wrong that this will be mentioned and people will be made aware of problems to protect them but others especially power sellers and some dealers and auction houses are making sometimes mistakes too and so they have have unsatisfied customers too.
I had some bad experiences too with auction houses and dealers I think if you buy enough from different sources this can not be completely avoided but their number is very low in relation to the deals I was satisfied.
Satisfied customers or customers that thought that everything was ok, generally do not write that they are satisfied or that everything was ok, Joe who I assume has only satisfied and very satisfied customers had to start even a thread "Submit a BBB Review of Forum".
And very happy customers are writing sometimes reviews or good evaluations too but I think only a low amount of them.
But not satisfied and angry customers will of course rather try to find a way to tell that they are not satisfied and to warn others and they will scream the loudest.
But we then have to realize that this not satisfied customers may be screaming the loudest but are not representative for the majority of the customers who are satisfied but too lazy or not satisfied enough to spend time to write positve reviews/comments.
In Germany we use to say who doesn´t work is doing no mistakes but who works much will make many mistakes.
I assume that almost all unsatisfied customers of Lanz have good reasons to be angry but there are always some customers which are problem customers which you can not satisfy.
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Should [NAMES REMOVED BY ADMIN] had sold 30 to 50 blatant fakes this year their account would have been posted as NFSL in no time.
The situation here seems different, as the percentage of fakes is low compared to all coins sold, coins are taken back without discussion, and Lanz undoubtedly has his merits.
Luckily the decision is not for me ???
As to those distrustful recut and murdered sestertii:
Sometimes we just called coins like this "lanzed" or "hirsched" in Germany
But nowadays you find them for better and for worse in a lot of auctions of "respectful" companies.
Have a nice Sunday - it is getting warm over here today :laugh:
Klaus
Just for the admin:
The names of the ebay-sellers, which were removed, were no real names:
There is no German "Max Mustermann"
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Any time I have contacted Lanz about a fake in my area of specialty the coin has been withdrawn, which is only 3 or 4 times over many years. I’ve seen the same style fake slip through more than once, but it is difficult to spot if you’re not a specialist or not consulting the various fake reports for every coin. I think Joe brings up good points about the volume of coins he processes on his eBay store. I would not add him.
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What's the consensus, if there's any, regarding his legionary denarii ? These have been discussed for years now, and he must have sold well over a 100 in the past year only (often for an hefty price)...
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What's the consensus, if there's any, regarding his legionary denarii ? These have been discussed for years now, and he must have sold well over a 100 in the past year only (often for an hefty price)...
Based on the ones he has listed in the recent past and some of the ones he has listed now, in my personal opinion, I do not think they are legitimate and I would not buy one. Your views may differ, but a quick forum search will bring up the thread discussing these, and most people seem to think they are mostly fakes.
FWIW, legionary denarri of Mark Antony in VF or better grades are exceptionally rare when legitimate, as the coins circulated over 200 years before they were demonetized. Most real ones have significant circulation wear, and un-worn copies don't show up in a lot of hoards for whatever reason. It's highly suspicious all the lanz coins are about in the same un-worn condition and have few (no?) correlation to dies from known good coins.
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I also think that they are fake... Had a pretty animated discussion here some years ago with one of the sellers that have been flooding ebay with them ;)
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I can't speak to all the Lanz coins, but my primary interest area is Severan dynasty denarii, so will only speak to that. A quick look shows at least one of his severan denarii currently listed is a cast fake, and it's not like he has many listed right now. I would recommend anyone interested look at auction number 233989001833 on the usual popular auction site where lanz sells. A more obviously cast fake denarius would be hard to find, in my opinion. Nevermind this type is also perhaps the most faked plautilla coin in existence and the rarest plautilla denarius of Rome mintage, but was listed at a very low price. It purports to be RIC 369, for what it's worth.
I find it almost laughable that the store would have listed this innocently at a very low list price, and looking this obviously bad. It's soapy, porous, and has several big casting pits on the reverse. You can even see the casting seam along the flan edge in his reverse photo. It's really prominent between 12 and 1 o'clock.
If this isn't being done purposefully/fraudulently, then this fellow has no business being in the coin business in this one man's view. My vote is to add him. 5 minutes of searching his store is enough to outright declare I would never buy from him. Period. WAY too many fakes listed at any given time.
If others have more confidence, then I respect that and wish you the best of fortune in your business dealings. I'm merely offering my own opinion based on my own impression here.
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Yes, I've noticed that Plautilla earlier today while looking through his listings. Not the most deceptive one ;D
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I find this post presents an interesting quandary for the motto " Know the coin or Know the dealer"
Here the dealer is large and not directly responsible for every action personally. However should our expectation be that the dealer takes responsibility for their employees knowledge and subsequent actions? If one of my employees makes a mistake both myself and the firm are held responsible and to that end safeguards have been established to limit the opportunity for mistakes, which still occasionally slip through.
If the dealer has been repeatedly notified of mistakes and takes no action to limit or correct the errors made, are they not acting in a manner inconsistent with our expectations as a consumer?
Conversely what is my responsibility. I have never bought from numismatiklanz in part because when I looked at his listings I always saw a couple of coins I found suspicious so I turned to more trusted sources- based on my experience.
Where does my responsibility end and his begin. By selling on Ebay they are knowing selling to a market full of inexperienced buyers. Do they have a responsibility to be more or less careful in presenting? When the coin is worth thousands we expect careful inspections but when the coin is worth $10 should we expect the same level? They have a business to run.
I'm scratching my head wondering how to present "know the coin or know the dealer" to future entrants to the ancient coin market.
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I find this post presents an interesting quandary for the motto " Know the coin or Know the dealer"
Here the dealer is large and not directly responsible for every action personally. However should our expectation be that the dealer takes responsibility for their employees knowledge and subsequent actions? If one of my employees makes a mistake both myself and the firm are held responsible and to that end safeguards have been established to limit the opportunity for mistakes, which still occasionally slip through.
If the dealer has been repeatedly notified of mistakes and takes no action to limit or correct the errors made, are they not acting in a manner inconsistent with our expectations as a consumer?
Conversely what is my responsibility. I have never bought from numismatiklanz in part because when I looked at his listings I always saw a couple of coins I found suspicious so I turned to more trusted sources- based on my experience.
Where does my responsibility end and his begin. By selling on Ebay they are knowing selling to a market full of inexperienced buyers. Do they have a responsibility to be more or less careful in presenting? When the coin is worth thousands we expect careful inspections but when the coin is worth $10 should we expect the same level? They have a business to run.
I'm scratching my head wondering how to present "know the coin or know the dealer" to future entrants to the ancient coin market.
I think you've answered your own question - you know this dealer well enough to walk in the other direction.
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I read somewhere else that the letter/number codes in his auction titles are abbreviations for the consignor. I don't know if this is true but it seems possible., e.g. the letter code for all three "marc antony " denarii in the current sale is QW followed by a number.
Therefore, if you still consider buying from him, you should check especially all auctions with the same letter code as the coin you are thinking of buying, simply by searching for the letters.
Personally, I stopped buying from him.
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I've never had any dealings with Lanz. However, in my opinion, there has been too many complaints by too many different people for there not to be a serious problem with the way they are operating.
Interestingly, I made this same post yesterday on the CoinTalk website (another thread about a Lanz coin) and I was promptly banned. No explanation given, so I don't know if my post was misunderstood, or understood correctly.
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To the legionary denarii, they have been added and suspected by Minos when apollo_coins had many of them for sale at his ebay store.
After this many of these fakes appeared at ebay and some even were sold be reputable dealers or auction houses.
Now the question should be answered if all coins of apollo_coins were fakes and if yes what kind of fakes, modern hand cut dies, cast or transfer die fakes.
As far as I know all of his fakes except the legionary denarii were transfer die or cast fakes and at least one of his coins was authentic.
Of his medieval gold fakes, the transfer dies used to strike some of them have been offered to me (I have the pictures of transfer dies and of fitting transfer die fakes. (Can post if there is interest)
He sold one fake and one authentic Damastion Tetradrachm.
One had a very convincing surface (granularity from crystallisation) and flan and it was an obverse die match (same die flaw on obverse left ot eye) to the specimen in BNF in Paris and this coin was bought some moths before from a Lanz auction. And one which is imho a transfer die fake made form the Lanz host coin. After the Lanz coin was sold, 4 coins from same dies with same very soft surface and strange flans appeared 3 of them in auctions of auction houses and were sold by them and one by nfs apollo_coins there could be more of these fakes out there only made fast search.
I could of course not mention that the coin was before in a Lanz auction because it looks actually strange but if I would not mention and it would come out it would look bad but honesty is the best weapon.
I assume that the coin was bough by the forgers from Lanz and then resold and if we think how much they must have earned with the produced transfer die fakes they must have made some profit.
Lanz is nominated so I think I can post a link to the auction where the authentic host coin was sold Lanz Auktion 166 lot 41
https://www.sixbid-coin-archive.com#/de/single/l26988757
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5059864
The coin ex Lanz offered by nfs apollo_coins
https://www.coryssa.org/2532898/subcategory_id/6055/page/0/keywords/Damastion/search2/yes/date_to/2021-05-10/use_checkboxes/0/search_title/on/period/all/period/all/
The transfer die fake of nfs apollo_coins
https://www.coryssa.org/2533167/subcategory_id/6055/page/0/keywords/Damastion/search2/yes/date_to/2021-05-10/use_checkboxes/0/search_title/on/period/all/period/all/
Same obverse die in BNF in Paris "old" pedigree
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8499804r.r=Argent%2C%20Illyrie%2C%20Damastion%5D?rk=515024;0
I am curious how many here expected that one of his coins was actually authentic and the Damastion fake was actually a transfer die fake and not a modern hand cut die fake.
and if his other coins were either transfer die (some could be cast not sure form pictures), why should not be there the possibility that the legionary denarii were transfer die fakes copied from real coins.
The quality of surface is varying much (some have surface like bad cast fakes) others have only a little bit soapy surface with "hornsilver" and corrosion.
But the flans of all look the same, which is one of my main problems and the by me already mentioned problems.
apollo_coins threads
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=116574.0
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=118710.0
Imho all of these legionary denarii are fake, but some of them do not look so bad and some of them seem to have "horn silver" and corrosion and so they are not as obvious fakes as many pretend they would be.
I think an Italian Expert pretended if I remember correct that a Leontinoi tetradrachm can not be fake because of horn silver can not be artificcially created and applied on coins and so he sold the coin, which was imho very suspicious and in the opinion of some other experts there fake. I think we discussed them in German board and I think someone related to Lanz´s ebay store wrote that they have a very convincing surface corrosion and horn silver and so they are authentic.
And the soapy surface of this legionary denarii which is similar to the soapy surface of the Damastion transfer die fake could imply that these legionary denarii could be transfer die fakes rather than modern hand cut die fakes, because hand cut die fakes genarally do not have soapy surface (except some Lipanoff fakes but this is related to the fact that these Lipanoff dies are produced with electroplating like it is done for most transfer dies).
Picture 1 authentic BNF, same obverse die
Picture 2 Lanz authentic
Picture 3 Ex Lan sold by apollo_coins
Picture 4 apollo_coins fake
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@Din X As you say, these come in "various flavours". Some looks cast, others pressed or struck. My main problem with these at the time was not that apollo_coins had many for sale, but that several other notorious fake sellers also had large numbers of them in store, notably lampsack_gallery and rhoemetalces. The difference between the offerings of these last two and those of apollo_coins was that those of the latest were more deceptive to my eyes (struck), the other ones are obviously pressed or cast.
Now, let's say that most of the struck ones are real, and the others are derived from them. That would imply that a huge hoard of denarii was found altogether, comprising different issues, all of which struck with only one reverse die combined with 5 or 6 obverse dies throughout the serie (something that is seen with all of these, wether they are cast/pressed/struck). That do not seem credible to me, but I'm no expert in legionary denarii. On the other hand, it was also the opinion of Andrew McCabe at the time that they were all forgeries. And yes, apollo_coins did have other fakes in store, like the Mark Antony/Octavian denarius below (also offered by the two other sellers mentioned above).
Unless someone transferred all of the dies from the "genuine coins found in that hoard" to randomly use them to press the obvious fakes, I don't see how any of them could be real.
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These legionarii denarii are imho fakes (I have even on of them), but some have been alterd and can look more convincing and the employees of Lanz are not the best if it comes to fakes (He should have fixed this issue a long time ago, but he did not) and why shouldn´t his employees honestly think that they could be authentic if they have for example a convincing surface with horn silver and corrosion etc. They might not fool experts and of this type and some really good experts but at least some of the altered fakes are not as bad as some members and people try to make them and for me it is undertandable why they can fool some and to make them think that they are authentic. Some of them can look very bad and obvious fake too (not sure if they are casts of this fakes or transfer die fakes of these fakes).
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These legionarii denarii are imho fakes (I have even on of them), but some have been alterd and can look more convincing and the employees of Lanz are not the best if it comes to fakes
It surprises me that some can simply assume that Lanz has nothing to do with his Ebay listings. In my experience, including lengthy email correspondence, he is very aware of and involved with what gets listed for sale on Ebay, including returned fakes.
Who are these low quality, mystery employees who are listing his fakes? How does this assumption free Lanz from responsibility?
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Who are these low quality, mystery employees who are listing his fakes? How does this assumption free Lanz from responsibility?
Short answer - it doesn't. All that's really being debated is:
-Is Lanz (or his mystery employees) totally incompetent and unknowingly flooding his store with many fakes, or
-Is Lanz un-ethically party to fraud by flooding his store with many fakes.
In the end, I'm not sure the distinction matters. Lanz is definitely notorious. And he definitely sells fakes in greater numbers than almost any other well known online dealer.
Draw your own conclusions.
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I have not purchased from that seller; no experience bad or good.
In the US, a seller is responsible for the quality of the product, within the terms of the contract of sale. It does not matter if the "smartest" or "dumbest" employee is the actual sales agent, the business has the financial obligation. If a business uses incompetent sales agents, the business still has to stand behind the product within the terms of the contract. Read the sales terms before buying anything from anyone.
With coins, I personally would never buy from anyone who did not give an absolute guarantee of authenticity and reasonable terms for verifying authenticity.
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These legionarii denarii are imho fakes (I have even on of them), but some have been alterd and can look more convincing and the employees of Lanz are not the best if it comes to fakes
It surprises me that some can simply assume that Lanz has nothing to do with his Ebay listings. In my experience, including lengthy email correspondence, he is very aware of and involved with what gets listed for sale on Ebay, including returned fakes.
Who are these low quality, mystery employees who are listing his fakes? How does this assumption free Lanz from responsibility?
Lanz is responsible for his buisness and there are sadly sometimes too many fakes in his store if it comes to ancients (every offered fake is a fake too much) but they are not offering them intentionally like the criminals on nfs list and the amount of fakes is actually low in relation to the authentic coins, which they are selling.And Lanz or his employees are removing almost all of them if they are notified and I think that they honestly think that the very few fakes which they do not withdraw are in fact genuine.
When I first wrote them about a fake in their ebay auctions Lanz himslef answered and he often answered himself after this (it was not always clear who answered, because he sometimes used his name to answer and sometimes not.)
But some time ago, when I worte to the support of their ebay store, they did not anwer anymore and but they have wirthdrawn them.
If someone can not even write thank you, I will not help anymore , so I stopped to write them some time ago, but I still post fakes in their listings to German board to warn others.
I have been at his store because, he had many of these Sicilain fakes in his listing like many others and I wanted that the fake dies will be published and accessable to auction houses and dealers, that these fakes will not be offered and sold anymore.
I think that my idealism, to spend many thousands of Dollars to buy dies and to get pictures of others and to spend much time and effort to remove them must have impressed him.
He was really kind and treated me with respect, but when we spoke about fakes I noticed the he sometimes became emotional (mimic and voice) and that he truly hates fakes, I guess that they are bad for buisness and that they have caused him some money loss and trouble too in the past. I think that someone who hates fakes soooo much would never sell them intentionall and he and or his employees have generally withdrawn almost all fakes when they have been notified.
I have seen there a tray with sorted out fakes too and he has withrawn coins from previous sale too, when I told him that they are fakes.
I had been in his office (it is a roof apartment in Munich) with my dies and have seen some of the rooms, if you come in is a desk and secretary in hallway, I have seen his private room and one very huge room with many employees sitting there and doing coin description and adding them to ebay.
There was literature in this room and this camera system they are using. I have not seen some smaller rooms.
When I was in his office and we talked someone called, he answered the call and it was a customer and asked about a very coin modern coin in his ebay listing I think it was about the condition of the coin and he took his time to answer for I coin where he will make almost no profit with.
I do not know how much he charges as fees for consignors and maybe he is giving discount for power consignors but I assume something between 20-30% and in this the ebay fees of 10% and costs for photograph, attribution, authentication and adding them to ebay and doing support of them is included and % for rent for expensive office in Munich etc. If you then consider they are selling mainly cheap coins, where they do eran almost nothing for one coin, they make the money only with mass (they sell so many that they make profit even if they earn very little with each).
To do a long and authentication is costing time and money and is so not economical for cheap coins where they do earn very little.
Dealers who ask for higher prices have a higher margin and can of course invest more time for authentication, but higher price generally means it will take longer to sell them.
I do think that the buisiness model of Lanz is the main problem (to sell many many coins and making only little profit with each).
But the authentication skills of his employees of ebay store are really not good and must be improved why he did not do so far I do not know, maybe he tried to find some good employees but did not find.
I am not sure how much he can offer as sallary (he has to calculate always that it pays off) but it could be less and the work condition worse than in the other real auction houses in Munich, so I assume the really good ones go to the auction houses.
When I spoke with him I noticed that he is not completely satisfied with his employees and their skills if it comes to fakes, I think he said that only 1-2 of his employees were numismatics who are really interested in coins I assume the other ones are then doing this to have a job and to earn money but they possibly do not like their job then so much. Lanz could have tried to do himself or to find trainings for his employees to improve their authentication skills, (I do not know if such trainings are available in Germany), if he can not find employees better in authentication.
I have a buisiness too but not related to coins and the secret of being succesful is imho to have good employees but it is hard to find them.
And even good employees are doing mistakes form time to time but some employees are costing more than they earn you, such employees have to be fired.
(I had to fire one, she made very expensive mistakes and if I have to check everything she did later carefully, then I can do it in almost the same time by myself and right without paying for an employee).
Back to topic, there are many thing that we can critisize about Lanz and which he should improve and imho should have already improved a long time ago, but he is not a criminal who is intentionally selling fakes, he and his employees are removing almost all fakes if they are notified and I believe that they honestly think, that the very few fakes, which they refuse to withdraw are actually genuine .
There speaks nothing against it to objective critisize Lanz, he is selling many many coins, (many customers are not giving feedbacks like me) and so the number of his sold coins is much higher than ebay evaluations are implying.
If you sell so much, much can go wrong but, so there is obviously a high number of not satisifed customers but their numer if we see them in realtion to very happy and satisfied customers is neglectably low.
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I wonder if Roman coins are more problematic than Greek here. I used to browse Lanz nightly for Greek coins, and although there was a phase when many were horribly tooled, forgeries themselves were quite rare.
I also just caught up on an old CT thread and there are many stories there. Perhaps this is one where you should consider leaving the topic open for a bit, Joe.
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I think we can all understand a desire to defend an old friend. However, I think pity should be directed to the victims who spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on fakes rather than the man who continues to reap a profit from selling them.
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I think we can all understand a desire to defend an old friend. However, I think pity should be directed to the victims who spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on fakes rather than the man who continues to reap a profit from selling them.
I doubt that it is always possible for auction houses to get the money back from consignors if coins later (maybe after some years) turn out to be fake.
And of course dealers can have a problem too if coins later (maybe after some years) turn out to be fake.
I think, that we can assume that many of the fakes in black cabinets of dealers or auction houses are such fakes, for which they were not be able to get their money back from consignors/sellers.
Another way how dealers can get fakes, is if they buy whole collections.
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I've used Lanz for years and have generally been happy but was iritated by their sale of a large number Paduan fakes recently. Although clearly noted as fakes, once they are in "circulation" who knows who is passing them of as geniune?
I'm certain there are employees involved because some recent Roman purchases have been incorrectly listed under either the wrong emperor (as if a template was reused without overwriting it) or the RIC is just plain wrong. Either way, and I don't buy much from them now, it is sloppy at the very least and they do not respond to messaging on eBay.
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We seem to have some confusion here. When we talk about COINS, if they are fake or genuine, we talk about them ONE AT A TIME, or ONE TYPE AT A TIME, and we do not mention dealer names unless they are on the NFSL.
Nomination does not include discussions about the authenticity of any particular coin(s). This thread is a mess.
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I just looked at the eBay shop again. They are careless at best and it does seem worse than that. They deserve to be on the list but I suspect it is going to cause a lot of trouble if I add them.
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We have a saying for this in Germany
"Die Kleinen hängt man die Großen lässt man laufen"
I suppose there is something similar in English, google doesn't help much
You hang the little ones, let the big ones run
Joe Sermarini's decision is very understandable
Regards
Klaus
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I think just having a thread like this helps people make their own decision. Whether or not they are on the list, I know what I will do when it comes to Lanz, and I suspect others will do the same...
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We seem to have some confusion here. When we talk about COINS, if they are fake or genuine, we talk about them ONE AT A TIME, or ONE TYPE AT A TIME, and we do not mention dealer names unless they are on the NFSL.
Nomination does not include discussions about the authenticity of any particular coin(s). This thread is a mess.
If nomination does not include discussions about the authenticity of any particular coin what does it include?
Ross G.
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IF you have questions about authenticity, then they should be discussed in a separate thread that does not name the dealer. If we condemn them, then that can be mentioned in a nomination. The two should not be mixed.
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I JUST CAN'T BELIEVE IT; please look at the description !
DT
https://www.ebay.de/itm/234202449127?hash=item36878dc4e7:g:CmwAAOSwJGlhTeSc&LH_Auction=1&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=707-53477-19255-0&campid=5338712040&toolid=10001&customid=15780X724604Xc5fd15e4856f948cc07eda08603b1d7f
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Will the buyers of the previously sold items read this? Hopefully!
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He currently seems to sell his "black cabinet" and gets good prices as the coins are sold with real old tickets
https://www.ebay.de/itm/LANZ-SICILY-NAXOS-DIONYSOS-TETRADRACHM-MODERN-FORGERY-SILVER-HL634-/304108759847
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and gets good prices
IMHO either a fake collector or someone who thinks he knows better
EDIT: See the post of DinX (next post) for the template.
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He currently seems to sell his "black cabinet" and gets good prices as the coins are sold with real old tickets
https://www.ebay.de/itm/LANZ-SICILY-NAXOS-DIONYSOS-TETRADRACHM-MODERN-FORGERY-SILVER-HL634-/304108759847
This seems to be a cast fake or very bad electrotype of the authentic coin in Münzkabinett München
https://virtuellerkatalog.staatliche-muenzsammlung.de/virtuelles-kabinett/suche?no_cache=1&tx_jomuseo_pi1009%5Baction%5D=detailobject&tx_jomuseo_pi1009%5Bcontroller%5D=Museo&tx_jomuseo_pi1009%5Bh%5D=1&tx_jomuseo_pi1009%5BjoDetailView%5D=record_DE-MUS-099114_kenom_186535&tx_jomuseo_pi1009%5Bjopaginatepage%5D=1&cHash=ad13be5d3a9cf1226ea35e5702de3e22
Ich have one too but mine is higher quality and an electrotype
The majority of the fakes with tickets that he sold seem to be cast or very bad electrotpy of museum pieces I have some of these myself but as electrotypes in higher quality and I do not remember tha I have seen any of this fakes in his black cabinet when I was there, he had only some bad fakes most likely from whole collections he has bought in the past, so he was most likely able to get the money back from consignors when he accidentially sold fakes.
Some of his fakes were really old, good and valuable fakes and some were and are just trash.
I own a Samos drachm too which was condemned by Julius Friedlaender in his book "Ein verzeichniss von griechischen falschen münzen welche aus modernen stempelin geprägt sind: Zur warnung zusammengestellt" published 1883.
I do not know why the coin was condemned as fake from modern hand cut dies but in hand it looks 100% authentic and it has an really old pedigree and I have seen die matches with old pedigrees although I have to admit that I have seen many fakes Caprara, Becker, Christoulos etc in old auction catalogues too, so old pedigrees does not mean a coin is authentic but it means at least no modern fake.
And I have some coins in my own colleciton of which I do not know for sure if they ar real or not and I have seen fakes in black cabinets in museums (you can seen them with appointment) of which I did not know why they are fakes and the Expert there sometimes did not know too. It is not so easy to tell always if a coin is fake or not.
Even if the Legionary was condemned it was possibly because of the pearl which would mean cast.
I did some research for some Alexander drachms and found that an US auction house has listed in his auctions several of this fakes in their auctions, Auction 207, 8 Alexander fakes, auction 208, 4 Alexander fakes, auction 209 2 Alexander fakes, auction 210, 1 Alexander fake, auction 2011, 1 Alexander fake, auction 214, 1 Alexander fakes in other auctions are very obvious fakes too linke in auction 206 a Callatis drachm(modern dies Bulgarian workshop).
The problem of this Alexander drachms is that they share all same style and fabric (very round and soft planchets and soapy details) and which would mean same artis and workshop but they are supposed to be from different emperors, times and mints and of course they combined all dies like crazy although most die combinations can not be possible and then they even combined them with already published fakes from modern dies. The only confusing thing almost all are completely modern hand cut dies but some are real hardcore recut transfer dies and they used and recut then either imprints taken from authentic coins or modern replicas. Of course I was not able to find any real coin from this dies but sometimes similar ones obverse dies but there were still well visible differences showing that they are from different dies. And of course Lanz sold some but not so many of these too on ebay.
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. . . some recent Roman purchases have been incorrectly listed under either the wrong emperor (as if a template was reused without overwriting it) or the RIC is just plain wrong. . . . they do not respond to messaging on eBay.
Their incorrect eBay attributions extend to the Islamic and medieval European coins as well. I bid on the coin and not the attribution.
The one time that I had occasion to question them about a coin -- after it was already in hand -- they responded to my email and offered to reverse the purchase for a refund (I ended up keeping the coin; it was an interesting contemporary counterfeit).
Stkp
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I think just having a thread like this helps people make their own decision. Whether or not they are on the list, I know what I will do when it comes to Lanz, and I suspect others will do the same...
I am late to the conversation here, but that was exactly what I was thinking. I won't buy from this Lanz under any circumstance. This thread is at least helpful to people like me whether he is on the list or not. All the talk about, "well, he doesn't know who is putting his coins on ebay, etc.," do not give me comfort. He is still responsible even if he has no clue what others are doing in his name. That is called running a business, you are responsible for everything that happens in it..
Virgil
Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers => Topic started by: Dominic T on May 08, 2021, 07:48:00 am