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Author Topic: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection  (Read 109996 times)

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kuasimodo

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2007, 07:19:18 pm »
Many thanks! I am a native Greek speaker but was not aware of it. So if one were to read it from top to bottom, it would be:

Aleksion Despotin Kyrie Fylatte
ΑΛΕΞΙΟΝ ΔΕΣΠΟΤΗΝ ΚΥΡΙΕ ΦΥΛΑΤΤΕ

Offline joma-tk

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2007, 11:45:12 am »
Hello everyone

I will present today a Tiberius Constantine follis which is not mentioned in Sear nor have I seen it in DOC catalogue, or Hahn, Ratto, Grierson or Berk.
There are two types of this Constantinople follis mentioned:
Either with large M (for the denomination) and CON at the exergue (Sear 428, DOC 10, MIB 23)
or  with small m and CON or CON+off at the exergue (CONA, CONB, CON :Greek_Gamma:,CON :Greek_Delta: or CONE) as in Sear 430, DOC 11-14, MIB 25.

The combination large M plus CON :Greek_Gamma: is not reported.

I would really like to hear some comments about this coin if anyone knows anything more.

Thomas

Offline vercingetorix

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2007, 04:49:31 pm »
The coin would have been indeed an unlisted variety. If you look carefuly on the coin you will se that the M is (or was initially) a small m. You can se the small cuved extension of the top of the left vertical line of the M that is typical for the small m. The two converging lines of the M are quite blury and perheps not only in the picture. So I must conclude without enthusiasm that we are presented with a regular issue of Tib. II, albeit a very nice specimen. How much did you pay? Around 40$?
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline joma-tk

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2007, 08:57:36 am »
First off all thank you for the reply,

to be honest, I was -and still am- not sure about this coin as well. So when I bought it I knew
there was a risk of having bought just a normal Tiberius follis but even so, I think I can financially survive  ;D
But I asked other opinions like yours, because it does not fit to be a normal follis either.
Believe me I have touched and seen so many (too many...) byzantine coins, that it is not easy for someone to sell me a fake (even the price I payed does not justify the effort of producing such a fake or intentionally modifying a genuine one).
From Wildwings I took the picture of an almost perfect Tiberius follis with m instead of my M.
They really do not seem to be the same, although I still can not say that mine is an unlisted variety...

thank you anyway

Thomas

Offline vercingetorix

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2007, 04:11:38 pm »
I agree it looks different, but my assumption was that initially they were the same; your coin is certainly genuine. There is either an overstrike or a deliberate blunder of the small m to make it look like a big M (don't ask me the reason for doing that). See the circled areas below. You can see the left-curved line specific to a small m. You can also see between the legs of the m the horizontal line from the middle leg. I should stress again that the center part of the m is blury and seems carved (tooled?)
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline joma-tk

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2007, 01:20:35 am »
Very hard to dissagree!
You are more than 90% correct.
Two things still annoy me though.
See the two circled areas at the attachment.
Normal m does not have a relief area there. Where did -and how- this extra medal came from.
More over, using a 30X magnifying glass, it is obvious that the patina over the central area
is old. Maybe as old as at the rest of the coin.
So if someone modified the m into an M, he did it a very long time ago.
The reasons we will never know...

Offline vercingetorix

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2007, 07:49:06 am »
This is a very interesting coin nonetheless; especially for this alteration of this original type, which is not modern but made in ancient times. Of course the reason eludes us, but you could figure out a few possible explanations.
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline joma-tk

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2007, 02:04:02 am »
The previous coin I posted here arrised many question marks and doubts ???.
This one will not :)
All normal Iustinianus 16 nummia from Thessaloniki, mention TES (or rarely TESB,TESX)
under an exergual line.
However there is a rare type without TES
According to Metcalf, 5 coins were only known of this type untill some years ago.
I myself have not seen during these last years any copy -apart mine- of that coin at any auction, printed or electronic. 

Offline bruce61813

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2007, 01:47:12 pm »
Very hard to dissagree!
You are more than 90% correct.
Two things still annoy me though.
See the two circled areas at the attachment.
Normal m does not have a relief area there. Where did -and how- this extra medal came from.
More over, using a 30X magnifying glass, it is obvious that the patina over the central area
is old. Maybe as old as at the rest of the coin.
So if someone modified the m into an M, he did it a very long time ago.
The reasons we will never know...

Sorry about the late entry, it looks like the "M" is either incluse, and was hand cut using a chisel, or the die was was warn out and a quick alteration was made to make it last. The arches of the
"m" may have been too worn, so it was re-cut into the "V" . If you look just under the "+" you and see hints of the arches and the terminal "-" below at the center.

Bruce
too many coins - too little time!!

Offline joma-tk

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2007, 02:55:09 am »
After all this discussion and Bruces correct comments, I am convinced that the coin was
altered.
The reason though can not be a  quick restoration of a "worn out die" for two reasons:
a. The overall condition of the coin does not indicate an extensive wear at this particular area
b. Even so, being worn out in a spot  could not be a problem for the coin to circulate normally and be accepted for everyday transactions. 

So I believe that the alteration, which 100% sure is not modern (at least not during the last 100 or so years due to the uniform patina as I mention in another post), was done for other reasons.
Either as an effort to create a variety (were there interested people-collectors back then??)
or from someone as a joke at his spare time...
Imagine, someone centuries ago, was lauphing at me :evil:

But I am lauphing at him also because I enjoy every minute of this story and the money I spent could just buy me 2-3 decent Mc Donalds meals ;D

Douglas

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2007, 08:39:25 pm »
But I am lauphing at him also because I enjoy every minute of this story and the money I spent could just buy me 2-3 decent Mc Donalds meals ;D

Isn't a decent McDonald's meal one of the rarest things on the planet? ;)  ;D

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2007, 08:32:16 am »
Not at all. It's as common as any other mythical beast.
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
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Offline byzantiumcoins

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2007, 12:27:52 pm »
Here«s my latest acquisition, an unpublished Justinianus, 8 Nummi of the Thessalonica mint.
byzantiumcoins

Offline wileyc

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2007, 11:08:07 pm »
byzantiumcoins,

 Interesting coin, I have a couple of questions, I presume this might place as around a sear 189-193 ??

 I was looking in Metcalfs' The copper coinage of Thessalonica under Justinian I and noting some of the weight variations between the different varieties. Might that be a  :Greek_Rho: between the dot and  :Greek_omega_small:  Great coin as I saw his comment (1976) that the survival-rate of the Thessalonican coins is low, 1 in 100,000 give or take a factor of 2.

cw

Offline joma-tk

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2007, 04:08:59 am »
I thought that my $ 167 bid would be enough :evil: :evil:

Offline joma-tk

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2007, 03:07:23 pm »
The following coin is not really rare but it's not common either.
It is a trachy from John III Doucas Vatatzis(1222-124) of Thessalonica mint, Sear 2128.
Virgin enthroned on one side and John as well as St Demetrius on the  other.
Funny thing is that the seller sold this coin as Manuel I trachy!

Laetvs

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2007, 08:10:15 pm »
It's rare to find it in such beautiful condition!  Very nice! 

Offline byzantiumcoins

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2007, 11:46:47 am »
byzantiumcoins,

 Interesting coin, I have a couple of questions, I presume this might place as around a sear 189-193 ??

 I was looking in Metcalfs' The copper coinage of Thessalonica under Justinian I and noting some of the weight variations between the different varieties. Might that be aÊ :Greek_Rho: between the dot andÊ :Greek_omega_small:Ê Great coin as I saw his comment (1976) that the survival-rate of the Thessalonican coins is low, 1 in 100,000 give or take a factor of 2.
cw


Dear wileyc,

please excuse my late answer.
The 8 Nummia coin would be classified as Sear 192 var, it corresponds with the 16 Nummia Sear 186, MIBE 170a
The second I of the AISPI of the 16 Nummia coin has been moved to the top and placed between the pellet and the Omega,
thus showing " A - pellet - I - Omega "Ê
Metcalfs book is wonderful, I truely love it.
Quite a few new variants especially of the 8 Nummia have come to light during the last 30 years though -
all of them are exceedingly rare, mostly only known in 1 or 2 examples.

Kind regards
byzantiumcoins


Offline joma-tk

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2007, 11:22:14 am »
I am glad to share with you a rare coin of my collection.
According to the data I have, less than 10 similar coins exist.
Iustinus I pentanummium Thessalonica mint.
Sear 80B
The coin is in EF condition.
 

petzlaff

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2007, 11:55:31 am »
Hello friends,

I'd like to share with you this (one of my favorite) coin out of my trachy collection.
I only show the reverse because the obverse is as flat as usual. The reverse is in VF condition or even better (sorry for the lack of sharpness in the pic).

ALEXIOS I (minted ~1114 at Philippoplis, today's Plovdiv, Bulgaria - Hendy mentions it was a commemorative coin on the 2nd visit of ALEXIOS in that town) - ref. DOC 31b, Sear 1936, Pz. 1.3b - the huge cross on globus cruciger is distinctive for this issue. BTW: I think, this coin is undervalued in Sears BC. During the last 5 years I only recognized 5 or 6 specimens of that type in auctions.
 
Some sources suspect Adrianopolis (todays Edirne, european Turkey) as where this coin was minted, but this is very unlikely. ALEXIOS spent 2 times in Plovdiv - both with distinctive coinage (Sear 1935 in year 1093-1094 and Sear 1936 in year 1114-1115). According to Hendy and Grierson ALEX never stayed in Adrianopolis, so it's obvious, that both emissions were issued in contribution of the Emperor's stay (both times for several months) in later Bulgaria.

 

Offline Pep

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2008, 09:45:45 am »
Anything from the Rome mint?


Emperor:  Heraclius (r. 610-641 AD)
Date:  613-ca. 620 AD
Condition:  aVF/EF
DenominationHalf Follis

Obverse:D3::Greek_Nu::Greek_epsilon::A::C::L::Greek_Iota::Greek_Omicron::R::Greek_Upsilon_2::Greek_Nu:
Two busts facing, beardless, draped, each wearing trefoil ornamentHeraclius on left, slightly larger than Heraclius Constantine on right.  Between heads, cross.

Reverse:  Large ":Greek_Chi::Greek_Chi:"; Above, cross.
Exergue:R::Greek_Omicron::Greek_Mu:

Rome mint
DO 261; Sear 889; MIB 243a
3.89g; 18.3mm; 165°

Ex Dr. Michael Metlich Collection


Kevin  :)

yafet_rasnal

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2008, 12:29:55 pm »
Lovely coin Kevin. Is it yours?

Offline Pep

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2008, 05:43:12 pm »
Thank you and yes it is!  8)

Kevin  :)

dolcinus

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2008, 09:34:46 am »
If you like "roman" stuff  :)
16 mmm, 3,7 gr still Heraclius with family  :laugh:

Note the reverse  :reversedN: :reversedN:  :)

Offline byzantiumcoins

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Re: Rare Byzantine coins in your collection
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2008, 09:48:15 am »
Great coin !
At first sight it looks like a contemporary imitation of Sear 891, DOC 266, MIB 244
but despite the retrograde NN it might as well be Imperial.
Byzantiumcoins

 

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