Gold aureus of Gordian III

[jurje]

Is this coin fake or not?

[Nebukadnezar]

What is the weight and size of the coin?
Weight should be around 5g+.
Why do You suspect the coin to be fake?
Style seems to be "ok" compared to authentic ones.
It could be authentic or a cast copy of an authentic coin.
Better pictures could help.

It seems to be : Gordian III, AD 238-244. Gold Aureus minted at Rome, AD 242-243. Laureate, draped and cuirassed bust of Gordian III right. Reverse: PM TRP IIII COS II PP. Apollo seated left, head tilted up, holding branch in extended arm and resting left arm on throne back. RIC 104

With best regards

[curtislclay]

Pretty certainly a fake in my eyes, because of the overall lack of sharpness and particularly the absence of detail on Apollo's head, chest, r. arm, and branch on the reverse.

[R. Smits]

Pretty certainly a fake in my eyes, because of the overall lack of sharpness and particularly the absence of detail on Apollo's head, chest, r. arm, and branch on the reverse.

I agree with Curtis. Portrait and Apollo looks like a bad cast : soft, no details, as one should expect on a high grade coin like this.

[stlnats]

Pretty certainly a fake in my eyes, because of the overall lack of sharpness and particularly the absence of detail on Apollo's head, chest, r. arm, and branch on the reverse.

A heavily polished coin, which the photo suggests, might exhibit similar characteristics.  Still some of the details are not as crisp as one would expect (eg Gordian's wreath). Given the tsumani of decently made fakes, one almost has to adopt a guilty until proven innocent attitude unless the piece comes with a strong provenance.  Even then its worth a bit of due diligence...

     

[djmacdo]

The surfaces are not what I would expect on a genuine coin.  I wish i knew the weight.  To me it looks like a heavily plated denarius.

mac

[mariela s]

Well, consider the quality of the image?
The difference in quality is big.
One is done with a professional camera, but I'm sure it's improved because the photo sells the product.

[Lee S]

Image quality has nothing to do with this... it is coin quality!!!! you can plainly see that there are NO sharp edges on the coin in question.. not even in the recesses where there would be no wear... I am very used to digital photography, its limitations and advantages, and this photograph shows enough detail to show there is no detail... I have made a crop of the mid section of the coin, and sharpened it up to highlight any small details... there are non!... 

[Andrew McCabe]

I am 35 years I've gotten five aureus know many people who are seekers of coins from 35 to 40 years, and have never found aureus. So how come every major auction out these wonders?
Each time, more and more beautiful?

A few points

- there are enough aurei around, and enough serious collectors of them, so that they form a different market segment from you and me, with plenty of coins and plenty of very rich collectors. In the Pompeii excavations (18th-20th centuries), 65% of the coins by value were aurei, 30% denarii and 5% bronze (roughly). Even allowing that there are 25 denarii in an aurei, that means massive numbers of aurei circulated in ancient times (mostly the common types of course). One Pompeii hoard alone, from Boscoreale, released 1000 aurei into the collector market, and that's a fraction of what Pompeii revealed. Here's a group of 37 from an English hoard - just imagine 1000!



- a good proportion of the rarer aureus types sold by major auction houses have long and easily checked provenances. It's mostly just the same old rare coins going around in circles, with the exception of some common types (Julius Caesar Hirtius, Nero, etc) where there a plenty, and plenty of newly foud ones too. The rare ones are not coming up in more numbers. The recent large NAC sale of aurei mostly had provable 19th century or early 20th century provenances.

So, nothing suspicious in the volume or nature of the trade. I'm just not rich enough to own many, but if I were rich enough, my collection would overflow with them no doubt.

[Lee S]

Andrew... I thought this was a clean forum... That photograph is nothing short of pornography!! 

    Seriously though... They are beautiful coins, I have no gold in my collection yet, but one day.. ( and you can be sure it won't be from EBay!!! )

[Andrew McCabe]

I agree with found aureus.
But do you think that the Italian authorities will allow them to sell at auction?

This means that they are stolen and illegally exported from Italy.

People have been finding aurei, and exporting them legally from Italy and from every other country in Europe, for hundreds of years. And since most aurei date from the Imperial period, they were anyway circulating around the entire empire - they were never only 'Italian' coins. So even a new one on the market today has no certain link with Italy. Many were probably even minted outside Italy. As I explained anyway, there are thousands and thousands of aurei in circulation today, and I would expect that 80% of them are outside Italy (and may have been found outside Italy, such as the group I show above). One coin adds nothing to this huge heap of gold, and has nothing to do with the Italian authorities.

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

I'd like to make a few observations here:

1) I have never owned a gold aureus coin - or ANY ancient gold coin, for that matter. And I have never held one in my hand. Most ancient collectors have never owned/held one. They are financially out of reach for 98-99% of collectors. Someday, I'd like to own a few gold coins of Augustus.

2) The particular gold coin in this thread just doesn't look right to me. As was pointed out above, especially on the reverse, the "wear" isn't even. The legends look XF. But the devices look smooth/flat. It is suspect to me.

3) Andrew is right. I was recently speaking to an ancient coin dealer here in the USA. He told me that he was selling Sicily dekadrachms that were recently found in Turkey.

4) As someone who primarily collects Italian coins, I keep on top of what the Italian authorities are doing. And I get my info from several different sources. Ancient coins, including Magna Graecia coins, are still being legally exported from Italy - with an export license from the Italian government, of course. The dealers who operate out of Italy proper are still getting export permission from the Italian government. It is the dealers who operate out of San Marino (because they were trying to circumvent the laws in the first place, even before the new January 2011 laws kicked in) who can no longer ship Magna Graecisa coins to the USA. I was recently conversing with an ancient coin dealer in Italy. He told me that, in all his years of selling ancient coins, he has never once been denied a request for export permission. But the beaurocracy is getting worse. He said, "They are so Byzantine there [at Italy's cultural ministry]". And it is getting more and more difficult to get export permission for rare coins, especially very expensive rare coins, like a Sicily dekadrachm, for example. Basically, he was trying to tell me that, as long as things are done through the proper channels, the Italian government is still giving export permission for Magna Graecia coins. Of course, you must pay the export license tax (15 euros, I think). I've heard the same thing from other ancient coin dealers in Italy. Of course, the dealers who operate out of San Marino are fuming.   

Meepzorp

[mariela s]

This treasure of gold aureus, no sharpness in the details of the coins. This makes them fake?

Showed an enlarged photograph of this treasure to see that actually a real aureus seems real one denarius. And have the same disadvantages due to various factors, some of which I quoted in the above, my post.

Not like some people here are saying that if aureus shortcomings mean it was fake.
Instead, just make it real disadvantages.
Yes, gold which is a symbol of royal power. But these coins were actually minted to serve as an exchange, wages, purchases.
Those old days were not thinking that one day there will be a collectors have made ​​them perfect.

Just perfect coin doubt be a huge and very worn. But coin that shows everything but the details are not as expressive of one side saying it is fake about it. I think it is not serious and simply nonsense.

 


I respect that there are people's opinions? But I do not understand: Why do I delete posts when opine different from the opinions of others?
Or here, as in most places in the world, there is no real democracy and imposing view different from your own?

[Andrew McCabe]

Just to be clear on the coin which is the subject of this thread, the photo is completely unconvincing, and makes it look a featureless cast. It looks fake, for the reasons listed by curtis, smits etc.

If mari_s is so convinced that photo quality is the issue, then mari_s should bring us a much better photo, although I doubt a better photo is going to alter my opinion, as a fake coin will look more obviously fake with a better pic.

[Joe Sermarini]

I respect that there are people's opinions? But I do not understand: Why do I delete posts when opine different from the opinions of others?
Or here, as in most places in the world, there is no real democracy and imposing view different from your own?

Today many people seem to accept all opinions as equal.  Even when one side has the near universal agreement of experts, the other side expects "equal time" and manages to convince people their uneducated ignorant opinions are important and equal to expert opinion.

People who seek answers here hope to get expert opinions.  When we get an expert opinion, I will not allow ignorant opinions to obscure it. One man, one vote will not make a fake coin genuine or a genuine coin fake.  On this forum I don't care about democracy, freedom of speech, or equal time.  If you post an opinion after a Procurator Monetae and do not specifically address why you disagree with the expert, your post may be deleted.  If you post an opposing opinion that a I personally feel is nonsense, your post may be deleted.  

Marla S, perhaps someday you too will be awarded the title Procurator Monetae.  Until then, your opinion here in this forum is not equal to theirs.  

[mariela s]

Thanks for the clear answer,
I personally do not intend to be adorned with titles,
But in this world there is no one who can guarantee one photo a coin if it is true or not.
I do not impose their opinions. No, I have and idea where the money is, and has who is.

Yes, I know, to ask for better pictures. I was something of a person, numismatic professional.
His name: David R. Sear
I said, that no picture can not say for sure if a coin was good or fake.
We speak of coins are minted. That for a thousand reasons, can are deferens.

In 4-5 years before I find a Stater of Alexander III the Great, with very interesting back and deferential style. A magnificent coin. In reverse had with writing: Alexander, is a: KY-ME
I went for the big auctions, and all say that the money was fake, because no one I have not seen a coin like this.
3-4 months, the currency is around here, for a longer. I was sure that the coin was genuine, because I have found and removed from the terra. All professionals say fake. And hands and photos.
Yo, I sent to David R. Sear photos, and told me, that and the best photos, you can tell if a coin is good or fake. For this, I have been sent on, for testing. I've waited 45 days. At last, you know how it is? The currency out: GENUINE, very-very rare variant Lampsacos. Only one is mine in muzeum in Berlin. This year 1946 published in Muler.
I am sure that there are several of these profesionalistas, here now know who I am, and remember this coin, because then many of them certified, I want, I put on auction has them.
Luck has all!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gracias por la respuesta clara,
Yo personalmente no tengo la intención de estar adornada con títulos,
Pero en este mundo no hay nadie que pueda garantizar de una foto si una moneda  es buena o falsa.
Yo no imponer sus opiniones. No, tengo idea y donde está esta moneda, y de quien es.

Sí, lo sé, podes pedir mejores imágenes. Yo era una respuesta de persona, profesional numismático.
Su nombre: David R. Sear
Me dijo, que  por ninguna imagen no se puede decir con seguridad si una moneda era bueno o falsa.
Hablamos de las monedas que son acuñadas. Eso por mil razones, pueden son deferentes.

En 4-5 años antes yo he encontrado una estatera de Alejandro III el Grande, con la espalda muy interesante y el estilo deferente. Una moneda magnífica. A la inverso tenía con la escritura: Alexander, es un: KY-ME
Fui a las grandes subastas, y todos dicen que la moneda era falsa, porque nadie que no he visto una moneda de esta manera.
3-4 meses, la moneda es de por muchos sitios. Estaba seguro de que la moneda era auténtica, porque he encontrado YO y retirado de la terra. Todos los profesionales le  dicen  falso"". Y las manos y fotos.
Yo le envié a David R. Sear fotos, y me dijo, eso y las mejores fotos si me envias, nadie no puede decir con seguridad si una moneda es buena o falsa. Para ello, se me ha enviado, para su análisis. He esperado 45 días. Por fin, ya sabes lo que es? La salida de divisas: Lampsacos ORIGINALES, variante muy, muy raras. Hay solo una como la mia en muzeo en Berlín. Esta bublicada en año 1946  en Muler.
Estoy seguro de que hay varios de estos profesionalistas, aquí, quien saben mui bien  quién soy YO, y recuerda esta moneda, porque  muchos de ellos cuando yo tenia certificados, le querian le pondgo yo ha las subastas ha ellos. Yo, he probado varios vez, cuanto saben estos expertos, y la verdad es que muchos no saben mucho.
Suerte tiene de todo!

[marrk]

so what? Gordian is still fake.

[Joe Sermarini]

...I said, that no picture can not say for sure if a coin was good or fake...

If a coin was made of foil covered chocolate, could you tell it is fake from a photo?  Sometimes it is VERY EASY to see a coin is fake from a photo.  This is one of those times.

I think this is most likely a gold plated silver denarius. 

[Jay GT4]

I think something is being lost in the translation...

[driekus]

I am 35 years I've gotten five aureus know many people who are seekers of coins from 35 to 40 years, and have never found aureus. So how come every major auction out these wonders?
Each time, more and more beautiful?

A few points

- there are enough aurei around, and enough serious collectors of them, so that they form a different market segment from you and me, with plenty of coins and plenty of very rich collectors. In the Pompeii excavations (18th-20th centuries), 65% of the coins by value were aurei, 30% denarii and 5% bronze (roughly). Even allowing that there are 25 denarii in an aurei, that means massive numbers of aurei circulated in ancient times (mostly the common types of course). One Pompeii hoard alone, from Boscoreale, released 1000 aurei into the collector market, and that's a fraction of what Pompeii revealed. Here's a group of 37 from an English hoard - just imagine 1000!



- a good proportion of the rarer aureus types sold by major auction houses have long and easily checked provenances. It's mostly just the same old rare coins going around in circles, with the exception of some common types (Julius Caesar Hirtius, Nero, etc) where there a plenty, and plenty of newly foud ones too. The rare ones are not coming up in more numbers. The recent large NAC sale of aurei mostly had provable 19th century or early 20th century provenances.

So, nothing suspicious in the volume or nature of the trade. I'm just not rich enough to own many, but if I were rich enough, my collection would overflow with them no doubt.

What a beautiful hoard. Andrew do you happen to have the link for this? I am guessing this is an early imperial hoard?

I find it so hard to find good pictures of hoards although if I did I probably wouldnt get any work done.

[mariela s]

...I said, that no picture can not say for sure if a coin was good or fake...

If a coin was made of foil covered chocolate, could you tell it is fake from a photo?  Sometimes it is VERY EASY to see a coin is fake from a photo.  This is one of those times.

I think this is most likely a gold plated silver denarius.

The coin has been published as authentic coin, in Bulgarian site for selling coins. Wrote that was published from outside Bulgaria. And as I see the weight and 5.17 g, which is in the framework of laws in the aureus, the Gordian III.
The price is equal to: € 3340

http://auction.bg/item.php?id=1285611

I do not think anyone will publish sell fake coin in the country counterfeits. 

[R. Smits]

...I said, that no picture can not say for sure if a coin was good or fake...

If a coin was made of foil covered chocolate, could you tell it is fake from a photo?  Sometimes it is VERY EASY to see a coin is fake from a photo.  This is one of those times.

I think this is most likely a gold plated silver denarius. 

I dont want to argue with the big boss, but I cannot find a 'PM TRP IIII COS II PP' denarius with this reverse... That rules out a gold plated denarius... But I still believe it's a fake !

[curtislclay]

I dont want to argue with the big boss, but I cannot find a 'PM TRP IIII COS II PP' denarius with this reverse... That rules out a gold plated denarius... But I still believe it's a fake !

That is correct, denarii of this type were only struck with TR P III (RIC 114).

Good observation, it hadn't occurred to me!

[R. Smits]

I dont want to argue with the big boss, but I cannot find a 'PM TRP IIII COS II PP' denarius with this reverse... That rules out a gold plated denarius... But I still believe it's a fake !

That is correct, denarii of this type were only struck with TR P III (RIC 114).

Good observtion, it hadn't occurred to me!

U owe me beer now Curtis

[Jay GT4]

BINGO!