Once you know you own a fake coin, what should you do?

[Brian Epps]

I realized yesterday, after researching one of my coins, that it is not authentic (!)

What are reasonable steps, or acceptable steps within the Ancient coin dealer/collector culture, that I should take? I cannot, obviously, re-sell the coin. And I really don't want to start accusing a reputable dealer of selling fake Ancient coins

Here is the background info and image:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?album=10&pos=243

>snip
Athens, silver tetradrachm, old style
AR tetradrachm, 17g
Offered for sale at auction

hcole_1989: I think it is the same fake. You can see the crest ending early right after the vine on the helmet. See the curved line.

Joe Sermarini: I believe this coin and others like it were made using lost wax casting. A mold was made from a genuine coin. The edges of the mold were enlarged so wax casts could be made with flans larger than the original coin. Many wax casts were made. These wax casts were then be carved and modified to remove the edge seams and to make slightly different coins. They were modified so not all the fakes would look the same. The most common change was the flan shape (which is why the original mould was enlarged). Then these different wax coins were used to make another mold. Instead of making a mold that had two halves and a seam, the wax was melted out of the mold (no seam, no edge filing required). In this case the forger missed something. On the original coin, much of the crest was off the flan. The forger didn't consider this when making the fake. The flan was made larger above the head but the area was left blank.

It is possible a genuine coin could have a missing crest like this. A broken die or bad strike could possibly have these results. However, we have seen many examples like this coin, some we know are fake.
>snip

Thanks for any help or suggestions,
Brian

[ecoli]

talk to the dealer(in private); even if there is a difference of opinion, he should take the coin back if there are serious doubts about the coin...

[areich]

If  the dealer is reputable he will take the coin back. If he won't take it back he's not a reputable dealer.

[Danny S. Jones]

What other criteria or proof have you found to make you think that your coin is fake?

 In comparing the coin listed in the fake report that you are referring to, I am reasonably certain that it is NOT a match to your coin, as you have ascertained. I have posted the pictures of the fake coin under yours for a comparison.

In many of the Athens tetradrachms, there is a stylistic break in the plumage of the crest. This may be what you see. As for the missing crest on the top, that is fairly common. The fake coin is fairly obvious because of the flat field where the crest should be. Yours is not flat, even though the crest is not plainly visible.

I cannot authenticate the coin by a mere photo, but you should not automatically condemn the coin because of the missing crest either, if this is the only reason you think it is fake.

Danny

[areich]

The quotes make it seem that the coin was condemned by some knowledgeable people.

If I have reasonable doubts I expect a dealer to take back a coin. I even expect a reputable dealer
to take back a coin if he's certain the coin is genuine and I'm just being stupid. I also expect him to
be friendly while doing it, whatever he may think of me.

[Danny S. Jones]

I'm definitely not trying to say it's authentic. I just want to point out that if the coin in the fake reports which was referred to by the quote is the one that Brian thinks is a match to his coin, it's not. His coin may very well be a cast copy made from the lost wax method, but it's not a deviation from this particular mold.

Brian,
Contact the seller in any case, and see what he says.

[Brian Epps]

All

Thanks very much for the replies and suggestions. It is all very helpful.

But ... I did want to clear up one possible area of possible misunderstanding

The example photo (image) shown on the FORVM website, and included in this message, is an EXACT MATCH to the coin I own. It is THE image sent to me by the dealer; I have verified this by matching the actual coin, in-hand, with the image. In fact, that is what caught my attention, as in: "That's MY coin! And it's a fake !"

So perhaps I can ask a more precise question: Is the scanned image shown on the FORVM site (which I have re-attached to this message) a fake coin?

If the answer is "Yes", I would conclude I have a fake coin.

If the answer is "NO", I would assume the FORVM image is not a fake (it is an authentic coin).

If the answer is "I'm not sure", is there someone who might be able to verify authenticity, provided I sent them the coin to examine in-hand.

I just need to be sure there is evidence of a fake coin before I proceed with a direct conversation with the dealer. Which I intend to do, regardless.


I will also post my photos of the coin in a follow-up message.

Again, thanks for all of the help,
Brian

[Brian Epps]

Here are my two photos of the coin (Seems identical to the scan sent to me by the dealer and the image posted on FORVM as an example of the fake)

Brian

[mihali84]

Hello Brian, the others who have posted responses here are much more knowledgeable than I but i would like to add my opinion to the question of the coins authenticity.  Judging only by the most recent pictures you added i see a couple areas on the coin that raise my suspicion. On the obverse, (issues with the crest aside) the area to the left and right of Athena's earring seems rough, uneven and abnormal (possibly due to die rust??).  On the reverse, missing detail on the feathers around the owl's head esp on the right is odd, and does not seem to be from normal wear.  Also, the dots (feathers) on the owl's breast just under the wing (an area where detail is mostly preserved on ancient coins of this type) seem non existent.  Taking a closer look at the obverse now i see that the curls of Athena's hair do not meet in the center and the upper curls do not meet the edge of the helmet, which might be the defining proof that the coin is sadly not authentic. In any case, I feel if you are doubtful about a particular coin your best bet would be to immediately arrange for a return of sale.

Best of luck- Mike

[Obryzum]

When I first started collecting I bought 2 fakes that were definitely counterfeit.  The sellers were blacklisted here.  I had no problem returning the coins.  For the fraudsters it is often easier to accept a return and find another victim. 

I also bought a suspect coin that was condemned here.  The seller was a collector not a dealer.  I had no problem returning the coin even though more than a year passed after I purchased it.

Don't panic, be diplomatic and polite, and there is a good chance you can get a refund.

[Brian Epps]

I want to thank everyone for their patience and the detailed, and very helpful, responses.

All of my questions have been answered! Most importantly, I now have the knowledge to resolve the issue with the original dealer (be nice, diplomatic, but firm).

A wonderful group of people on this discussion board and many, many thanks.

I may write again in a week or so, when this has been resolved.

Brian

[commodus]

Whatever else may be the case, the two coins shown in the photos posted in reply #3 are NOT matches of one another. The differences are so numerous that there is absolutely no question of that fact.

[Brian Epps]

I recently sent this coin to David R. Sear for authentication: David's (partial) comments on the coin: "I can observe no characteristics that would lead me to condemn it as a modern forgery"

If anyone is interested in continuing this discussion/debate, I can ask David for permission to quote his entire opinion from my authentication letter.

Brian