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Author Topic: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?  (Read 38021 times)

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Offline Goodies

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Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« on: June 05, 2006, 10:46:26 am »
Hello experts,

On our forum in The Netherlands, that is www.muntenbodemvondsten.nl the following denarius of Maximinus Thrax came by.. We wonder, if the portrait is genuine, because it looks soo young and lovely. Most portraits of this emperor do not look so cute.. so we doubt wether this coin is genuine.. Or was it just a fan who cut the die ?

Thanks for all comments, also on behalf of Gantois321..

 :tongue:
Lex

Offline Jochen

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2006, 10:56:15 am »
Hi Lex!

Here is another beautiful portrait of Maximinus I without his long chin. They are not so rare.

Best regards

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2006, 10:57:14 am »
I know that the busts of Maximinus Thrax went through stages of development and one of the members here collected three examples showing the distinct types, the first of which is more youthful, with a less developed chin.

As you can see there is a distinct aging process here for three coins that are all RIC 16. Youthful portraits do exist.
I hope this is useful.
Regards,
Martin

Offline Goodies

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2006, 11:09:36 am »
Ok guys thanks for reassuring, I trust Gantois321 can now safely assume, that the portrait is a romain portrait. I see no other troubles..

Thanks also for the great pictures in this thread.. astonishing, these young portraits. Maybe the succession played also a role, that is the portrait looking like his predecessor ? The first example that Jochen shows looks a little bit like Severus Alexander..

Looking at these older portraits.. this emperor must have undergone a metamorphosis during his reign..

 :)
Lx

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2006, 11:11:49 am »
     Maximinus' first portrait type, as illustrated by Martin, is influenced by Severus Alexander and has a slightly curving nose.

     The second type is distinctly Maximinus, has a straight nose and begins to emphasize the protruding chin.

      The third type has a grotesquely hooked nose and chin.

      Lex's coin shows the second portrait, with straight nose, but with some reminiscences of the youthfulness of the first portrait.  It is by an accomplished engraver.  I see no reason to doubt the authenticity of the coin.
Curtis Clay

Offline Tiathena

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2006, 11:55:20 am »
 
     I’m wondering whether I may be reading too-much into what Curtis has said here, in thinking that this (in the order of examples shown by Martin as well as the descriptive accounts given by Curtis) represents also a chronological progression?
 
  I seem to recall about a year or so ago here at FORVM, there was a discussion about the possibility(?) (was it pure speculation?) that Maximinus (may have?) had some disease which caused the bone growth and elongation of the chin.
  I can’t recall tho’ whether that was purely-speculative or rested on anything a little more substantial.
 
  Either way tho’, now I’m again wondering whether, if there is one here, we can account for such a chronological progression of styles?
  i.e.  Reflecting some natural cause of genuine physical transformation? ..or reflection of senatorial / universal aversion to the man? – or ..?  ..Just increased familiarity with him over the three years which led to good-faith efforts to be ever-more faithful to the subject without reference to previous ‘styles?’  ..Or - ?
 
 
  In the example shown by Jochen and the first by Martin, one can clearly see the S. Alexander influence (if not S. Alexander himself) – in Lex’s example, I can’t help but see a sort of hybrid of S. Alexander and Caracalla
 
   Best,
   Tia
 
 
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2006, 12:30:29 pm »
Tia,
     Yes, it is a chronologicial progression.  The third portrait only, for example, appears on all of Maximinus' coins with victory title GERM, from mid-236 on.  The rare early types of the reign, INDVLGENTIA AVG and MARTI PACIFERO, occur mainly with the first portrait, only occasionally with the second.  The dates must be, approximately,
1st portrait:  Spring 235
2nd portrait:  Summer 235-Spring 236
3rd portrait:  Spring 236-Spring 238 and end of reign.

     And yes, there is a disease that makes you a giant (which M. is alleged to have been) and gives you a hooked nose and chin.  If we can believe that M. was very tall, and that his third coin portrait is accurate, it seems he may well have had this disease.  It is unlikely, however,
that his hooked chin and nose only developed in the course of 235-6; doubtless he had them at his accession and we have to find a different explanation for his 1st and 2nd portrait types.

Yours,
Curtis

Numerianus,

As we have seen, cast fakes can be very good.  As soon as you can show us an exact duplicate of this Maximinus, it becomes a good cast.  But then it is a cast derived from a genuine original.  The question was, in essence, "Is this portrait possible on an authentic coin?"
Curtis Clay

Offline Jerome Holderman

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2006, 12:39:35 pm »
Actually I am up to 5 variations now.  ;D

Offline Tiathena

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2006, 01:26:23 pm »
 
        Dear Curtis,
 
  Thank you very much for that!
  Just what I was hoping for in the way of a reply – not too sure I’d be quite so lucky!
 
   “..doubtless he had them at his accession and we have to find a different explanation for his 1st and 2nd portrait types.
 
  That makes perfect sense.
  Doesn’t it then seem most likely that accounting for the earlier types – particularly with the distinctive similarities to S. Alexander in the earliest – would be simply that his actual appearance was unknown, hence a bit of early “making-do,” followed by perhaps a little further refinement based on oral or textual descriptions, and finally perhaps based on some ‘universally’-circulated portrait-model?
 
 
   Best, & most gratefully,
   Tia
 
 P.S.  That is an awesome collection and presentation of those variants Jerome!
  Thanks for the visual aid for this discussion…
 
  ~ T.
 
 
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2006, 11:01:12 pm »
Tia,

Yes, your explanation is probably about what happened!

It remains a little surprising that it took the mint a full year to arrive at the "correct" portrait!
Curtis Clay

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2006, 11:52:53 pm »
 
   Thank you once more, Curtis:)
 
  “It remains a little surprising that it took the mint a full year to arrive at the ‘correct’ portrait!
 
  Yes, I was thinking the same too… With my only further surmising being, perhaps there was a general expectation that he wouldn’t be around long enough for any such effort to really much-matter?
 
  If I understand correctly, too – he himself never was in Rome (during his three years); perhaps one ought not be too surprised that those who knew his actual appearance were never far from his side, literally…
  He himself probably had a continuum of more pressing headaches than his ‘(un)-likeness’ on the coinage being struck – for that first year or so especially.
 
   Just more of me guessing the un-guessable of course..!
 
  Most gratefully,
  Tia
 
 
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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2006, 01:01:15 am »
I dare to contest the idea of an unknown  appearance or partially unknown appearance
(this particular issue though seems to be  due to of the engraver's inertia). 
It may happened that the facial features of Maximianus, indeed,  changed dramatically within such a short
interval as 3 years due to the disease.  I read a story about a retired basketball player who was 235 cm (so almost exactly
the same as the height of Maximianus, 10 Roman feets, communicated in Scriptores).  Now
he is a fifty-year old person, sverly handicaped, but  he continues to  grow!
I hope that there are members who could clarify whether the gigantism might deformed so quickly a person attained.

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2006, 05:25:37 am »
 
   Hmmm!
  That is interesting …  Enough so to prompt me to take the lay-superficial poking about.
 
  It could well be that Maximinus didn’t have gigantism at all, but rather acromegaly.
 
  A few quotes culled from numerous sources follow. *

  “ Background: Gigantism refers to the excessive linear growth that occurs with growth hormone (GH) excess when epiphyseal growth plates are open during childhood, whereas acromegaly indicates the disorder of GH excess in adulthood. These disorders may be thought of as existing along a spectrum of GH excess, with principal manifestations determined by the developmental stage during which such excess originates. Onset of GH hypersecretion in childhood results in gigantism, onset of GH hypersecretion in late adolescence results in tall stature and acromegaly, and GH hypersecretion that occurs after fusion of the epiphyses is termed acromegaly. This article focuses on GH excess occurring in childhood.
 
    Current studies show that Gigantism "is extremely rare," and Acromegaly being found more frequently.  I’ve of course no basis for any supposition one or another way whether such frequency in population would have been equally true in – say – Europe in the 3rd century, other than the reflection that the causatives are physiological and – as it seems – most-largely pituitary, which cannot have been so radically different from ours of today.  Short of a more-informed & knowing view to the contrary, I see no reason to suspect otherwise.
 
  “Age: Gigantism may begin at any age prior to epiphyseal fusion. The mean age for acromegaly onset is within the third decade of life. In acromegaly, the range of delay from onset of symptoms to diagnosis is 5-15 years, with a mean delay of 8.7 years.
 
   “Clinical Features *

   Distinctive features and pathologic findings associated with GH excess usually begin in the third or fourth decade [of an individual’s life] and progress insidiously. The mean age at diagnosis is 42 years and equal in sex incidence. Typically the duration of symptoms is usually 5-10 years before the diagnosis.

  Soft tissue proliferation is one of the early manifestations. Leading to the classic features: enlargement of the hands, feet and facial features, the most common complaint of the patients.

  In adults, the syndrome is characterized by local overgrowth of bone (skull, mandible). Linear growth [height] does not occur because of prior fusion of the epiphyses of long bones.

 
 
   A photo example of a well-documented case, Rondo Hatton, whose facial-distortions were diagnosed as the product of acromegaly.
 
           [BROKEN IMAGE LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
 
 
    Perhaps such was just what afflicted Maximinus?
  Perhaps, as Curtis has observed with eloquent reminder of the value & simplicity of common sense: “ It is unlikely, however,
that his hooked chin and nose only developed in the course of 235-6; doubtless he had them at his accession and we have to find a different explanation for his 1st and 2nd portrait types.

 
  If he was a sufferer of acromegaly, unless he represents a rather ‘unique’ case of ultra-rapid advancement (unlikely) – he must have exhibited at-minimum the first stages of the visible effects of the tumorous growth(s) prior to his accession, and they almost-certainly could not have developed so fully (as in the latter portrait styles) in so short a span of time (even a mere two years).
  However, perhaps there was that all-too-common commingling of the ‘chaos’ of history – ignorance of his malady, awareness of its effects (symptoms), an earlier deference to the Emperor not to ‘mention’ or at-least to exaggerate them in his portraiture, and later less reserve about inclusion of such as simply part of his actual appearance?
  Perhaps by some engravers, even intentionally making something of a caricature?
 
   It is all very interesting tho’!
 
   Anything written in the Scriptores or elsewhere, about his having suffered from severe headaches, troubles with vision, etc?
 
   Best, as always –
    Tia
 
 
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Offline Tiathena

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2006, 05:49:21 am »
 
         Greetings Gantois321,
 
   First, your English is fine!
  Secondly, in answer to your specific question here, I am confident you may rest-assured your coin is genuine and not a fake, as Curtis Clay has already said above: “It is by an accomplished engraver.  I see no reason to doubt the authenticity of the coin.
 
  That’s enough to terminate my question regarding a coin’s authenticity.
 
   Congratulations on a very lovely coin, too!
 
   Best regards,
   Tia
 
 
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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2006, 02:19:14 pm »
The seller has had a mixture of things.  Buying what I buy, I never have had a problem with him.  You can surely accept Curtis's verdict on this coin with which, for the little it is worth (not my collection area) I concur.  Tia, for that matter, also has a fine sense of style and technique.  Pat L.

Offline DruMAX

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2006, 03:37:55 pm »
I have read that he was a very large man...but I always attributed the differences in how he is depicted on coins as the artist idealizing him for some reason...maybe because they did not know what he looked like and then as they got a better grasp as to how he looked they made the coins look more like him...which I guess might be the wrong way to look at this. I tend to think that he looked almost exactly like the bust below.

He was only emperor for about 4 years so I doubt his likeness changed so drastically thus I assumed that they idealized him for some reason in some coins and made him younger (maybe because they didn't have a good idea of exactly how he looked...) and began showing more of his real likeness later on...or even exaggerated is prominent features...I tend to think he looked most like the second or third example shown (at the very top of this thread) or in the one shown below ...he never even made it to Rome during his short rule am I right? So maybe coins made in areas he was more well known would be more of an exact likeness... Just an opinion.

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2006, 03:09:02 am »
What is said about Maximinus in Historiae Augustae?

"For certainly he was strikingly big of body, and notable among all the soldiers for courage, handsome in a manly way, fierce in his manners, rough, haughty, and scornful, yet often a just man. "

"Severus helped him to advancement in the service when he was still very young. In height and size and proportions, in his great eyes, and in whiteness of skin he was pre-eminent among all. "

"He was of such size, so Cordus reports, that men said he was six inches over eight feet in height; and his thumb was so huge that he used his wife's bracelet for a ring.  Other stories are reported almost as common talk — that he could drag waggons with his hands and move a laden cart by himself, that if he struck a horse with his fist, he loosened its teeth, or with his heel, broke its legs, that he could crumble tufaceous stone and split saplings, and that he was called, finally, by some Milo of Croton, by others Hercules, and by others Antaeus. "

'' Maximinus was almost eight and a half feet tall; and certain men deposited a shoe of his, p371that is, one of his royal boots, in a grove which lies between Aquileia and Arcia, because, sooth, they agreed that it was a foot longer than the measure of any foot of man. 9Whence also is derived the vulgar expression, used for lanky and awkward fellows, of "Maximinus' boot". I have put this down lest any one who reads Cordus should believe that I have overlooked anything which pertained to my subject. But now let me return to the son. "

It seems that this extracts shows clearly that he has gigantism but in his youns years he was not ugly.  The clinical features
communicated by Tiathena are compatible with his portraits and even the period of their development with
the age at which  Maximinus became  the emperor.  Note that   that the first imago used by engravers
was not necessarilyone  just done, it could be an earlier portrait and the evolution we observe on coins may corresponds  to several years more.
Since  this is a hormonal  desease, it might  influence on the behavior of a person.  HA informed us about his rage and ferocity. 
 In fact,  Maximianus was extremely  experienced general the most successful at wars. He imposed heavy taxes not to enrich himself but to pay his victorious  army.  Could this be the only reason raised such a hate against him? 
Not adequate behavior  could be the main reason.

Offline Tiathena

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2006, 04:33:15 am »

   Very, very interesting indeed, Numerianus!
  Thank you for that…
  That does indeed seem ample evidence he almost certainly did have gigantism – and it may have been of that variety which also led to acromegaly later on.
 
   I am sorry I missed those recent threads discussing modern copies – it pains me to think how much, and how many great threads and posts I’ve missed now this past many, many months.  More than I’ll be able to catch up on now…
  Yet I do thank you for that mention and relating the gist of what was said – including the great detective work of Postvmvs.
 
  In your saying, “ This specimen looks a bit too smooth, even  with respect to examples shown at this thread” – I am assuming you are referring to the image you’ve posted immediately above – right?
  It does seem not only “a bit too smooth” but – my goodness, that is the Most geriatric-looking portrait I’ve ever seen..!
 
   Best, as always -
   Tia
 
 
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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2006, 04:53:58 am »
No, I had in mind the silver denarii: bold struck, the silver  suffers from cracks.   
On the sestertius,  chin  is clearly  deformed by the illness.

Offline Tiathena

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2006, 05:15:14 am »
 
  Ahhh….  Okay.  Thank you for clarifying.  Yes, I follow your meaning now.
 
  Still, I don’t trust my own ability to discern fakes – for the greatest part (i.e. it would have to be a Really bad / obvious one).
 
   So for me, I’d put my ‘money’ where it seems safest in such regard.
  If such a coin doesn’t raise a brow or concern for Curtis – it’s ok with me.
 
  Indeed, some serious, advanced deformity evident on the sestertius.
  He does look to my eyes as though in his early eighties there…
 
   Best, with thanks -
   Tia
 
 
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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2006, 11:55:22 am »
As I mentioned even reputed  sellers and even  inspecting coins personally
had difficulties to accept that they are fakes despite of  irrefutable argument:
existence of other specimen with the same features.
However, the casting technology, has some limits because the liguid tends to minimize its
surface and that is why transversal cracks are smoothed and filled by the metal.
It would be nice to see a high resolution photo of the coin in question, also of the edge. 
Look at the example below: it has rugged edge. Apprently it was struck.

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2006, 09:31:34 pm »
This is an interesting thread. Regarding the theories of his portrait, I would advance:
1. It is highly likely he had gigantism.
2. Giants, so rare but existing (a man in Mongolia is this size today), of course happen before plate growth completes. ANY giant will have correspondingly huge hands and feet, and an elongation of the face. Plus many other medical problems not directly related to the host gland.
3. Giants, when aging, will have acromegalic type features. I am not sure that you would see much more facial change, as acromegaly without being a giant happens rather slowly. Prior to photographs existing, it might be hard to say a person has it, especially if you see them regularly.
So with Max Thrax, I see 2 theories:
1. the engraver never met him, and went from Severus Alexander until his features were observed
2. the engraver purposely did not show his acromegalic features, as this would have been unbecoming, if not repulsive, to the general populace. At least at first, especially if the citizens didn't meet him!
However, I think theory 2 has more holes in it. Wouldn't a giant have been a person of great reverence, god-like in his gifts?
This emperor, in some respects, is the most intruiging. He would inspire incredible awe due to his strength and size. Imagine Goliath standing in the front row of the Philistine foot army. Wow!

Offline Tiathena

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2006, 11:40:45 pm »
 
    It is an interesting matter to contemplate & discuss – and, of course, to theorize…
 
   A few further thoughts ...
 
  While it does seem clear &, even with due caution mindful of the sources, fairly certain that Maximinus was in size & stature notably above the average mean, I think it not imprudent to remind ourselves too that in every population there are exceptions to averages and not all who manifest notable characteristics of such type do so as result of disease or physical defect.
  There are many cases where exceptional height, width, girth, stature, innate physical strength and the like are simply genetic traits – which may or may not be even further punctuated through vigorous exercise..
  Thus reflecting and held to our senses, we may yet ask whether such seems also possible or likely in the case of Maximinus Thrax.
  In his case, we are actually led to contemplation of something beyond a merely genetic expression of such traits primarily owing to the depictions of his seemingly transfigured and distorted facial features – features which in their most amplified depictions more than a little suggest that the appearance of his youth or early manhood described in the H.A. as “..handsome in a manly way," have since undergone a dramatic transformation in another direction.
  These two polar points of consideration, it seems to me, seem persuasive in the argument asserting a case of acromegaly, even if the ‘apparent’ documentary representation of such transformation as communicated by the radical changes of visage in his portraiture over the period of his three years in which his coins were struck, are completely unrelated to the progression and are nothing more than a series of unrelated accidents; a point in-itself which seems, I think, highly-probable.
 
  As Numerianus has stated and asked – “He imposed heavy taxes not to enrich himself but to pay his victorious  army.  Could this be the only reason raised such a hate against him?
  Not adequate behavior  could be the main reason.

 
  &nd as Gavignano has asked and postulated: “Wouldn't a giant have been a person of great reverence, god-like in his gifts? … He would inspire incredible awe due to his strength and size.
 
  I would suggest that if we listen to the reports of Cordus (H.A.), we can surely hear the hearty laughter & enjoyments, the awe and appreciation of rough soldiers.  It can hardly surprise us that such a man (so described) would excite their base-humors and seem impressive in just such ways to them.
  Would it be so more universally?  I rather much doubt it, and seriously doubt it if it includes any ‘ugliness of distortion’ particularly to his countenance.
  It is not a superficiality that the sentiment was fairly universal I think among the ancient Greeks and the (Greek-educated) Romans that, as has once been succinctly said – “ugliness is itself an objection.”
 
  My best understanding of the ‘popular’ resentment of Maximinus, however, is that it had root in his ‘barbarianism’ – ‘Thrax’ they called him (‘the Thracian’) – the first and perhaps underlying objection was a matter of bloodline, usurpation, social and cultural pretension.  Seems easy enough to imagine how much the senatorial class particularly must have resented him and the relative ease with which they might raise common-accord with their view among the general populace, already disposed to resent him for his heavy taxation and confiscations, etc.
 
   I would think that the anomaly of his size, stature and strength not only failed to give him any particularly reverential traits, but weren’t enough to stem the universal contempt in which he was ultimately held.
  It seems (again, speaking solely for myself here), that fascinating as this particular question is now regarding his physical condition – to his contemporaries it was little if anything more than a notable curiosity, albeit one which may have been exploited by some partisans one way and another, depending on their disposition towards the man.
 
   Best,
   Tia
 
 
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Geert Callaert

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2006, 05:53:09 am »
Quote
So with Max Thrax, I see 2 theories:
1. the engraver never met him, and went from Severus Alexander until his features were observed

If my documentation is right, this denarius was struck from march 235 till january 236. The coins were also struck in Rome.
We also do know that Maximinus NEVER went to Rome. All the above are not suggestions but we know that for sure.
So suppose this coin is from march or april 235, how should engravers have known how Maximinus looked like? At that time, Maximinus was near the Rhine river, in Germany. The theory copying/imitating the portrait of Alexander Severus looks for me very plausible, but who am I ?  ;)

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Is this a Maximinus Thrax portrait ?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2006, 07:23:12 am »
It was not the only case when the engravers had no access to the image of  the just elected
emperor and this is a good chance for numismatics to  date some coin issues with a precision.
E.g., we know that on the West  the first issue of coins of Probus was  with the portrait of
Florianus.  It is quite enigmatic for me what was imago. It seems to be an offically approved bust
which was quickly delivered to all mints.   So, where is nothing unusual that the  first issues
has nothing in common with the coming later. Could it be a basrelief, drawing in the case of emergency?
Or just a bust from a home collection (corresponding to personal album)? 
 The second phemomenon is the engravers' stereotypes:
there is an inertia  to continue the same movements repeted earlier thousand of times.
 This is the reason that the early portraits still resembles portraits of the previous emperor.

 

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