Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Single Side Die Matches  (Read 540 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ken W2

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
Single Side Die Matches
« on: May 08, 2023, 11:27:30 pm »

I have been comparing imperatorial and republican coins from my collection (and others) to the coins in Schaeferā€™s die study looking for die matches. I have found many matches and most are both obverse and reverse matches. However, occasionally I find a match to only one side. I also found these Lepidus denari on CRRO which are reverse die matches, but not obverse. It seems entirely plausible to me that over time one reverse die would be used with more than one obverse die, and vice versa. Perhaps this is common knowledge and Iā€™m just learning it, but Iā€™m curious to know if this is fairly common and more common among certain issues or during particular periods? Thanks in advance.

Offline gustrot

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Single Side Die Matches
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2023, 01:39:39 pm »
Hello Ken,

This is very common indeed that you have only one of the 2 dies that matches, as, as you guessed, there is no reason that the obverse die would break at the same time than the reverse die, hence an obverse die being used with several different reverses.

This is the basis of die studies that enable to know a lot about the organization of the mint (one or several officinae / anvil per officina), use of a "die box" where dies are stocked at the end of each day, producing many different links, fixed or moving obverse die on the anvil, etc. All these kinds of information can be deducted from proper die studies.

Best regards,

Offline maridvnvm

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4440
Re: Single Side Die Matches
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2023, 05:53:17 am »
I think that it you focus on a single area deeply enough then die matches are inevitable. I collect certain dies to attemnpt to understand the chronology or structure of certain issues. I collect the early eastern issues of Septimius Severus.

Let me explain what I use die matches for based on a small example.

This first coin has an off-centre reverse strike.

Obv:ā€“ IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG COS II, Laureate head right
Rev:ā€“ MONET AVG, Moneta seated left, holding scales and cornucopiae
Minted in Emesa, A.D. 194 - 195
References:ā€“ RIC -, RSC -



finding a double die match enabled me to confirm the readinf for the reverse die



then finding an obverse die match to a different reverse die provides more information. In this case it is tied to a VICTOR SEVER AVG reverse type, which we think may be an early product of the COS II issue. It is thought that the longer reverse legends come earlier in the series. This is supposition but more evidence would be useful. I now look for a reverse die match to this coin to find another die link, thus buiilding more information on the chronology.

Obv:ā€“ IMP CAE L SEP SE-V PERT AVG COS II, Laureate head right
Rev:ā€“ VICTOR S-EV-ER AVG, Victory walking left, holding wreath in right hand, palm in left
Minted in Emesa. Early A.D. 194
Reference:ā€“ BMCRE 399. RIC IV 428 (S). RSC 749



For what it is worth I have one single obverse die linked to more that 10 different reverse dies in my collection alone. I also then have liks between some of these reverse dies and other obverse dies. This is then the start of a small die study.....

I didn't want to overload this thread with such examples however unless you are interested in seeing them.

Offline gustrot

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Single Side Die Matches
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2023, 05:13:31 am »
Hello maridvnvm,

Very interesting exemples! I am actually conducting the same type of die study for the early eastern issue of Philip!

And my findings are very different than yours. Indeed, there exists 3 types for this issue (PAX FVNDATA CVM PERSIS, VIRTVS EXERCITVS and SPES FELICITATIS ORBIS), and, while I found a lot of matches inside a same type, there is absolutely no link of an obverse with different reverses. To put it differently: each obverse die seems to be linked to a type of reverse. You can even identify some stylistic features linked to specific reverses.

In my case, the die study shows that the 3 types were minted separately (either geographically or in time), while, in the case studied by maridvnvm, with so many reversed linked to a single obverse, you can certainly state that all reverses were minted simultaneously, probably with a "reverse die-box organization", where at the end of every workday, all reverse dies were stored in a box and randomly assigned to anvils on the next day.

Offline Callimachus

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
Re: Single Side Die Matches
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2023, 11:38:50 am »
I have several examples in my collection of obverse dies matched with different reverses. So I guess my experience is like that of maridvnvm.
Pictures are below:

Elagabalus obverse die matched with 3 reverses:
TEMORVM FEL  (RIC 201)
CONCORDIA MILIT  (RIC 187)
CONSVL II  (RIC 166)

Elagabalus obverse matched with 2 reverse dies:
BONVS EVENTVS  (RIC 186)
SPEI PERPETVAE  (RIC 199)

These are from the eastern mint, generally thought to be Antioch.
I also have 2 coins of Gordian III (also from Antioch) with overstruck different reverse dies, one of which is inverted. Elsewhere on this Forum, Curtis Clay suggests the different overstruck reverses seems to strongly suggest that two reverse dies were often being applied in rapid alternation at a single obverse die. This would explain why the same obverse die exists with multiple reverse dies.


Offline maridvnvm

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4440
Re: Single Side Die Matches
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2023, 02:39:51 pm »
Here is a six reverse die set:-








The Mars reverse die linked to this coin: linked to two other reverses






Offline Ken W2

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
Re: Single Side Die Matches
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2023, 06:20:37 pm »
 
Thanks for the responses folks. Interesting posts and coins. Somehow, probably due to paranoia about fakes, I got the wrong idea about die matches.  Apparently, both single and double sided matches are common.  So, die matches are not of concern vis-a-vis genuiness unless there is a match to a known or suspected fake.  I somehow got in my mind that the available surviving population of ancient coins is so few that die matches among genuine coins would be very rare, and thus a die match would automatically be a red flag.  Glad I asked a "dumb" question.

As time allows I'll spend some time comparing my MALs and those in Schaefer's study to see if I can locate examples of an obverse die being used with multple reverse dies of the same legion and/or an obverse die being used across the dies of different legion reverses.

Thanks again.       

Offline maridvnvm

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4440
Re: Single Side Die Matches
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2023, 06:09:45 am »
Hi Ken W2,
I think that the answer that you are really after is more subtle still.

Ignoring fakes for a second.

In some series, where the volume of production is relatively low and the number of dies having been made is quite low, die matches within that series, whether single or double die matches occur quite frequently but the coins themselves might be quite scarce. In the examples I shared in the post directly above the six coins that share an obverse die match are all quite scarce. It just happens that that obverse die is from a small sub-series that contains a series of legend errors on the obverse that are often unique to a single die. I have gathered those 6 examples over a 20+ year time period and am aware of a couple of more dies in other collections that would extend the number of reverse dies even further. In a larger series, where the number of dies made is much larger then die matches do occur but are less common. In some collecting areas (e.g. some roman provincial collecting series) it is unusual not to encounter die matches as sufficient study has been published that the majority of dies are known.

Now to consider the subject of fakes.

These can be considered in at least two categories either modern dies or ancient dies. By this we mean that the actual dies used to make the fake are made in modern times.

Let us take the following as an example. These dies were made by a Bulgarian engraver "Lipanoff" and several examples created.

We have images of the dies themselves:-

Here is a freshly struck example made with these dies:-

Here is an example that is a cast of a fake coin created from the dies above. This example can be identified as a cast due to the softness of detail but also the casting seam evident on the coin.


Any examples that can be matched back to these dies can be deemed to be a fake. Knowledge of the dies is thus key in identifying these fakes.

It should be noted that once these dies exist and casts of these exist id does lead to the use of these dies to create impossible combinations. The following is an example of this. A whole series of modern dies were created and then used in a mix-and match fashion to create several impossible variations. I create a montage of the die linkages I found within this group which can be seen here:-

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pid=18629

Again, it is the knowledge that the dies used are fakes that allows us to conclude that the coin is a fake.

Now you get to cast fakes. Knowing how a cast fake is made is useful here. A host coin is taken and is used to create two halves of a mold, which can then be filled with metal to create a copy of the original item. This could be a fake coin but could also be a real coin. There are tell-tales that you can learn about identifying casts in hand but here I am not going to delve into that but will say that if we have two coins, from the same dies, with the same flan shape and identical wear pattern then at least one of those is a cast fake. There is a possibility that one of them is the host but in all likelihood they are both cast fakes.

I will illustrate this with a denarius of Julia Domna that I bought.



I didn't know this was a cast fake when I bought it. I knew that it was a cast fake when I had it in hand and had examined the coin in detail. It is probably created from a real host coin.

Several more matching examples have appeared on the market since.




Here, the die match alone is not sufficient to indicate that it is a fake. It is the die match combined with the other factors. Finding a double die match but with a different flan shape, strike, wear pattern etc. might well be a real coin.

Has this been helpful?
Regards,
Martin


Offline Ken W2

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
Re: Single Side Die Matches
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2023, 08:23:17 am »

Hey Martin:  Yes, sir, that is very helpful and nicely illustrated!
I know our knowledge of mint operations is limited, but at some point Iā€™d like to read up on the minting process and day-to-day operations of ancient mints. While on a basic level the minting of coins (by striking as opposed to casting) is simply using one piece of metal to shape a softer piece of metal, when the intricacy, craftsmanship, art, and messaging reflected in ancient coinage are considered, the minting process really is fascinating. 
Thanks again for sharing. 

Offline maridvnvm

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4440
Re: Single Side Die Matches
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2023, 09:54:08 am »
By the way. Here is the largest number of reverse dies that I have in my collection tied to a single obverse die.....

Obverse die:- IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG II CO, Laureate head right

Reverses:-
BONAE SPEI (double die matches)


BONI EVENTVC (double die matches)


FELICITAS TEMPOR

FORTVNAE REDVCI, Fortuna (pax?)

INVICTO IMP TROPAEA

LEG VIII AVO (sic) ? CR P COS

MINER VICT

MONETAE AVG (2 reverse dies)


VICTOR IVST AVG (2 reverse dies)



Making eleven (11) reverse dies with this single obverse die in my collection alone. I do know of additional reverse dies mated with the same obverse.

I have reverse die matches between these and others in my collection too.





 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity