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Author Topic: I do not believe grading  (Read 1206 times)

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Offline cicerokid

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I do not believe grading
« on: January 19, 2022, 04:12:32 pm »
Lot 4269. ATTICA. Athens. AR Tetradrachm (16.96 gms), Leukios and Antikrates, magistrates, 72/1 B.C. NGC EF, Strike: 5/5 Surface: 2/5. Light Scratches.
HGC-4, 1602; Thompson-1227a.1 (possibly this coin cited). New Style coinage. Obverse: Helmeted head of Athena right; Reverse: Owl, with head facing, standing right on overturned amphora; to right, Demeter and Artemis standing; uncertain letter on amphora, ΔI below; all within wreath. Very attractively struck and having only faint traces of wear, this piece is a charming example of the popular type, regardless of some scratches on the surfaces. Thompson mentions 1227a.1 as encountered in "commerce 1955." Given Salton's activity in the business at the time, this well could be that example.

From the Mark and Lottie Salton Collection


This very rare very late post Sullan New Style  was too rich for me. How on earth can it be EF 5/5 strike surface 2/5 light scratches. To my mind it originally Could have been gleaming when first minted but it quite obviously

from heavily worn used dies the surface of the coin as minted cannot be ascertained cos it's had a lot of handling after minting. So how on earth has it been graded as above... I would grade is as good-very fine. Not a chance EF. To me it seems take it to a graded have it entombed in plastic that will slot in with your Mikey Mantel Baseball cards and your entombed  Babe Ruth autographed autobiography as originally hand-written.

I kid you not it's a scam.

Luckily my leven later Diokles post Sullan New Style only cost me £165 via ebay. And I would grade it Strike 2/5 Surface 3/5 Good fine-very fine
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Ron C2

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2022, 05:22:17 pm »
Hopefully I am not stirring a hornet's nest here, but I am not particularly convinced NGC grades ancients consistently. This is perhaps because every hand struck coin is unique, allowing room for bias, interpretation, etc. 

With modern coins, there are undeniably perfect examples to compare to, but even then, people will de-slab coins and re-submit them until they get a grade they agree with. With ancients, I think it's even more subjective.
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R. Cormier, Ottawa

Offline cicerokid

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2022, 06:10:16 pm »
Now , Now Ron..........your skepticism might not be popular. I wonder is there a explanation of the coin in question so we can see where their grading decisions come from>
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Ron C2

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2022, 07:21:23 pm »
I just bought a slabbed septimius ric 34 graded XF that at best is an aVFin my opinion. So to each his own.
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Offline cicerokid

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2022, 07:49:41 pm »
Sorry Ron I don't believe where's your picture!!!

Anyway It's not the coin they're grading but the bit of plastic and the sticker!
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Ron C2

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2022, 08:01:33 pm »
Sorry Ron I don't believe where's your picture!!!

Anyway It's not the coin they're grading but the bit of plastic and the sticker!

It's being shipped, I'll post it when it arrives.
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R. Cormier, Ottawa

Offline esnible

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2022, 09:31:37 pm »

Offline cicerokid

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2022, 06:34:05 am »
Hi thanks for your replies.

 FROM THE PHOTOS WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE TOP COINS GRADE AND THEN MINE?


TA JOHN
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline djmacdo

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2022, 07:16:15 am »
Whatever some grading service says, I say that is rare and nice coin.  I have written this before--for me there are only two grades:  I want it and I do not want it.  Your coin certainly belongs in the first category!

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2022, 07:24:19 am »
Grading is for investors. For people who are interested solely in prices. When collector can't judge by himself if particular coin is beautiful or ugly, he should give up on collecting.
Lech Stępniewski
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Offline Ron C2

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2022, 07:40:59 am »
Lech, while I agree for ancient coins, the modern coin guys are nuts for this grading stuff, and not just investors.
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Offline esnible

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2022, 09:59:58 am »
The Salton coin looks aXF to me.  However, I haven’t seen it in person.
Your coin looks XF.

Your coin must be a higher grade as there is less wear on the owl.

Athena’s chin usually looks bad on these.  Both you and the Salton example have nice chins.  A good chin makes a coin more impressive than a high technical grade, so congrats to you and whoever bought Mark and Lottie’s coin.

When NGC started slabbing ancients I was very confused about their system.  I don't have the luxury of apprenticing to a dealer to learn grading.  I taught myself how to guess what NGC will grade a coin.  At an auction preview, go through a box of slabs backwards, write down the grade you think each coin is and an estimate without looking at the front.

Then, when you go home, write down what NGC graded the slab as and the estimate the dealer assigned.

You will learn a lot that way!  (After this exercise, online bid on the coins for which your estimate is higher than the dealer's.)

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2022, 10:41:18 am »
the modern coin guys are nuts for this grading stuff

I know. And that's why I am on forum ANCIENT coins.
Lech Stępniewski
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Offline cicerokid

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2022, 08:50:21 am »
Now I think this is possibly good VF and the second was EF by Roma, but mine and the Lottie is neither like these so my 2 must be worth millions then once in a plastic tomb
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Virgil H

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2022, 10:34:20 pm »
I pretty much agree on your take on grading. I don't pay attention to it unless it is obvious that grade is overstated to make the price higher. But, scarcity/rarity is also used the same way. So, I buy coins I like that I can afford and I look for the best quality I can afford. That said, I have seen coins for sale I thought were under graded, as well as those over graded. Go figure. And the few I have bought in NCG encapsulations I have removed and thrown away the plastic while keeping the one tag with info on it. I personally think NCG grading is a scam designed to raise prices for no real reason, including for modern coins, perhaps especially for modern coins. I do not collect moderns, partly because of the obsession with grading. Who can actually tell between a 58 and 59? Not me and I don't care. With ancients, I think that grading is going to be different for every city and be based on the coins of that city. Judean coins seem notoriously poorly made, for example, as are many barbaric coins. But, grading for a particular Judean coin might be EF when it would be Poor if it were some other mint producing them. If I like it, I will buy it.

Cheers,
Virgil

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: I do not believe grading
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2022, 07:31:06 pm »
NGC fairly consistently grades coins slightly higher than I would.
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