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Author Topic: Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me  (Read 3965 times)

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Offline dougsmit

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Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« on: February 28, 2005, 04:19:55 pm »
I know that there are a couple people other than me that finds some interest in the Eastern coins of Septimius Severus so I am posting a new denarius that arrived today and asking opinions from those 'into' the subject.  The coin was sold as 'barbaric' but that is not uncommon when dealing with the Eastern mints and this one has an additional feature or two that might lead someone to that opinion (even though I believe it is perfectly normal but a mite scarce).  The legends read different than I believe did the dies because there is considerable double striking on both sides.  Note that the beaded border does not line up.  I believe that the obverse is a normal early phase Domna from the mint traditionally assigned to Emesa (actual location less certain to me).  It read IVLIA DO  MNA AVG but the double striking could fool you into seing another letter on the right.  Note the die was punctuated (not all were).  The reverse started life as BONI EVENTVS IICOS but the overlap erased a couple letters.   The IICOS reverse coins of Septimius are not common but exist for some (all?) of the reverse types used with the first obverse legend issues of this mint.  RIC lists one as 611 for Domna (under Alexandria?) but I had not seen this series in her name in person.  

If you feel like making a comment, I would appreciate hearing if you agree that the 'strangeness' of this coin can be written off to the strike error and that the dies should be considered normal for their mint and period.  I would really appreciate it if anyone has a reference or photo showing this reverse or has a die match to the obverse die.  Die linking can be difficult with good coins but a worn double strike may require more examination before I am ready to place it.  This mint used many reverse types for Domna that normally should be used for her husband so I do not consider this coin a mule in any sense of the word.  Finally, there are coins of this period known to have been overstruck on earlier coins.  When I first saw this coin I was hoping it was one because of the reverse cracking and extra marks which I now am calling doublestriking.  If you see something on the photo that you can not accept as having come from these dies, please do point it out.

Offline maridvnvm

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Re:Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2005, 10:13:56 pm »
Doug,
I agree with you 100%. I too have a passion for the Eastern coinage of the Severan era and I can see nothing that cannot be accounted for in the double striking. A really interesting coin. I have seen several Septimius Severus Emesa coins that have been sold as barbaric but are simply scarce Emesa variants. I congratulate you on a wonderful addition to your collection.
Regards,
Martin

Offline curtislclay

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Re:Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2005, 10:37:46 am »
Doug,
      Your new coin is from the same dies as Vienna 42837, ex Voetter, which in the Vienna trays is wrongly placed under Alexandria.  I have a cast of one other coin from the same obv. die, coupled with the standard "Emesa" rev. type BONA SPES.
      The Vienna coin is not doublestruck, and confirms the normal readings of your obv. and rev., as you restored them.
      I too see no indications of overstike on your coin, just double strike.
      Nice acquisition!
Yours,
Curtis
Curtis Clay

Offline dougsmit

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Re:Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2005, 03:29:15 pm »
"which in the Vienna trays is wrongly placed under Alexandria."

Thanks.  Does a coin being misplaced in Vienna mean someone actually believes it is Alexandria or is this just a case of something that can never be corrected for political reasons?  I assumed the listing in RIC was made by copying an error but I would have hoped that something like that might heal in 50 years.

Offline curtislclay

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Re:Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2005, 05:07:06 pm »
Doug,
      I believe the Vienna collection was last re-arranged in the 1920s and 1930s, occasioned by the need to integrate the gigantic Voetter collection, which was acquired by the Austrian state after Voetter's death in Nov. 1926.
      So at that time Pink or Elmer placed the coin under Alexandria, perhaps on the basis of the obv. style, overlooking the fact that II COS on the reverse, plus style and rev. type, bind it inextricably to the COS II series ("Emesa").  Or perhaps Voetter himself had misattributed the coin in his collection, and the curators took over the error.
       Once the arrangement of a major collection is finished, the coins will tend to stay put.  I may have mentioned to the curator Dr. Dembski that there were two "Emesa" coins under "Alexandria",  but instead of studying the matter to make sure I was right, and then moving the coins to another tray, it was easier to leave them be!  None of the curators following Pink has been a Severan expert/enthusiast, who might have made corrections in the attribution of the collection on his own steam.
       Since WWII, how many scholars or collectors apart from me have examined the Severan Eastern denarii in the Vienna collection?  I bet no more than a dozen, and of those only a couple will have noticed the misattribution.
       The publication of a catalogue of the collection would of course tend to bring such attribution errors to light, but no publication of the Vienna Roman collection has occurred or is planned!
Yours,
Curtis
       
       
     
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Offline dougsmit

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Re:Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2005, 11:08:08 pm »
Thanks.  I added this coin to one of my pages that proved my site is no place to go for scholarship but there are still som photos that might be of interest to SS collectors.
http://dougsmith.ancients.info/bride.html
There are a couple varieties on that page that are getting more common since I started it 5 years ago.

Offline Rupert

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Re: Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2005, 06:59:17 am »
Hello Doug,

I'd like to thank you for your beautiful pages on Severan denarii which are not only informative but also do very well convey your passion for these interesting coins. Also, they sharpen the eye for noticing something special when I see it, and I'm susceptible to this. So yesterday I bought (for a ridiculous price) a coin which you know well. It's in no great condition, but obviously the rev. die is identical with your "bride" coin; I'm not sure about the obv. die, the nose of Domna seems to be damaged by a scratch (I don't have the coin yet). So for me it's an important addition to my few rare Severan denarii, and I thought you might be interested to hear about this specimen.

Best regards,

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline Adrianus

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Re: Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2005, 05:18:13 pm »
This is interesting. Just goes to show how two coins can look so different. Lex is right in my opinion on the reverse; the nicer specimen is slightly double struck but I think the two dies are the same. I also think the obverse dies are the same; the lettering looks identical and the problems are caused, I think, by the orientations of the two coins. Lex's point on the drapery is well made but I think this is a product of the striking and wear on the two coins; I would submit that both were struck from the same obverse die.  :-*I'd like to see some of that fingerprint ype technology that a member used a while back to verify my own claims of die-linkage ;)
Cheers,
Adrianus

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Re: Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2005, 07:06:48 pm »
Hi adrianus

I've done my best by rotating the obverse of the second one, scaling it as closely as I can, and superimposing it at 50% transparency on rupert's coin.

I am totally convinced that they are the same dies, and that the differences are due to the lighting angles at which they were photographed and the shininess of the more worn coin.

Particular areas of congruence are the strands of hair across the top of the head, the three strands of hair at the top of the 'bun', the triangular area between the bottom of the 'bun' and the back of the hair over the neck, the straight drapery on the *left* shoulder (which appears as a *dark* line on the second coin and a *light* line on rupert's coin due to the different angles of lighting.

Best wishes

Alan

[oops, forgot the attachment]

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2005, 07:42:53 pm »
I agree the obverses match.  I tried to post a note to this point earlier but it did not go.  Maybe this will?

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2005, 11:05:10 am »
I thought I would add this one to the thread. It is n't the great reverse of the coin Doug shows above but it does share the same reverse type.

I think it is RIC 616.
Regards,
Martin

Offline Rupert

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Re: Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2005, 11:32:54 am »
And again, the same obv. die as for Doug's and my Victor Iust Aug coins!!

Rupert
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Offline dougsmit

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Re: Julia Domna 'Emesa' new to me
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2005, 11:44:13 am »
http://dougsmith.ancients.info/jdemes.html
That seems to be the most common of the early Domna 'Emesa' dies.  A Venus coin and my example of the Boni Eventus are on the above page.

 

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