Widow's Mite Question

[Joseph C]

Greetings all:

I have yet to purchase my first Biblical coin and thought I would start with reasonably priced mites.  I used to be a collector of militaria and am well familiar with the counterfeiting that goes on in that field, that you have to do your research and that you find out who the credible sellers are.  My question is this:  Is anyone that you know of counterfeiting common mites?  One would certainly have to make a lot of common/cheap coins in order to make any money, but you never know.  I guess I am looking for some affirmation that this is a relatively "safe" coin to start with.  I will probably buy my first coin from this site since everything is guaranteed.  I'll be off to the library tonight to see if I can find any books on ancient coins.  Thanks for your insight.

Joe

[Tiberiusjulius]

There is a list of fake ebay sellers here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=18502.0
But if I where you I would buy all of my coins here.

[Robert_Brenchley]

I have seen the very occasional crude fake of the Jannaeus star and anchor prutah (I abominate the term 'widow's mite', it has less than nothing to do with the coin). You almost certainly won't come across one, but if you just compare half a dozen, then you're safe as the ones I've seen look nothing like the real thing.

[Joseph C]

Thank you both.  I understand your dislike for the term and hopefully you will forgive my ignorance on the matter.

[Robert_Brenchley]

Don't apologise; the wretched term's applied to these all the time, and it only makes them harder to understand. There's actually no reason at all to associate them with the story in the Gospels, and I'd like to find out how the myth originated!

[Vergilius]

In the greek gospel text (Mark 12:41) it is written that the old widow gave "   ", two lepton, similar in value with one quadrans. But I am not sure if the coins sold as "widow´s mites" is the lepton. Judean coins is not my area of collecting ancient coins

[napki]

2 lepta (Greek) = 1 prutah (Hebrew)= 1 quadrans (Latin). Very tiny half-prutah of Alexandr Yannai is very common. Smallest of small. However, is similar problem with "tribute penny". Writer of Mark Gospel likes to use Latin name for coins even though he is writing with the Greek. This part of reason his gospel believed to have been written in Italy. "Widow's mite" maybe most common of all ancient coins. I would no worry much about the fake. I know dealer who buy 900 lb of widows mite (maybe 500,000?) several years ago found in well.

[Robert_Brenchley]

You're absolutely right, Vergilius; these are pretty clearly prutot, even though many of them are underweight. The most you can say is that the most underweight may have circulated as lepta. As far as I know I'm speculating, but it isn't impossible for evidence to turn up. A number of small hoards of 139 prutot have been found; 128 prutot equals the half-shekel Temple tax, and other eleven presumably represent the money changer's commission, as it would have to be exchanged for a 'proper' silver coin. It would be interesting to know whether any of these coins figure in them. I think hoard evidence could answer a lot of questions about Hasmonean coinage, but so far I haven't seen any studies relating to it.

[John K]

Smallest of small. However, is similar problem with "tribute penny".

I agree that no matter what coin you are familiar with - lepton, prutah or quadrans - you understand that what is being referred to is the smallest of the small coins.

I do however find a difficulty when it come to the term "tribute penny" since it does not help me understand the type coin being referred to.  It should be noted that I am in the USA and therefore I consider a "penny" in the same catagory as a "mite" meaning the "smallest of the small."  But we know that the coin being referred to is a coin of considerable value - a denarius or a daily wage.  Even a small change of wording, like calling it a "tribute coin" would seem to be more helpful.

Now concerning this type coin - the Denarius - I have seen a number of fourees and even have a few in my collection. I have actually never seen a counterfeit widow's mite and now that I know they exist I will actually keep an eye out for one!

[cmcdon0923]

I do however find a difficulty when it come to the term "tribute penny" since it does not help me understand the type coin being referred to.  It should be noted that I am in the USA and therefore I consider a "penny" in the same catagory as a "mite" meaning the "smallest of the small." 

The "penny" in "tribute penny" comes from the fact that the denarius eventually came to equal the British "penny", at one time a small silver coin, but eventually changing over to copper.  The symbol "d" (from denarius) is still used to represent the penny denomination in English currency.

[Bacchus]

 The symbol "d" (from denarius) is still used to represent the penny denomination in English currency.

No, the "d" this is really only used when refering to the pre decimal currency.

"p" for pence has been used since the decimal system came in (nearly 40 years ago) - though it is possible to find a few "onery" market traders who sell in "d" and "lbs" more to annoy the EU weights and measures people than anything else.

[cmcdon0923]

Bacchus....

Agreed....I should have specified "pre-decimal" in my comment, but my main point was in trying to explain why the Roman denarius is the coin most often considered as being  the "Tirbute penny" of the Bible.

[John K]

When you mention that an older use of the term "penny" would indeed be a reference to a silver coin - then the image makes a lot more sense and I can see why this term was chosen.  I was only familiar with a copper type coin meaning to the word.

[Robert_Brenchley]

When the Bible was first translated into English, 'penny' was a fair translation, as it was then a high value silver coin, comparable to a denarius. Nowadays, though, it's plain ludicrous. 'Silver coin' or 'denarius' would be far better. There's nothing to connect the Tiberius coin they've picked on with the story in the Gospels either. Any denarius of any Caesar minted up to AD 30-ish would do. Then Mark (the first Gospel; Matthew and Luke expanded and adapted his work) has a habit of Romanising terms. Denarii were scarce in Palestine at the time, and very likely the original version said 'drachm'.

[cmcdon0923]

Nowadays, though, it's plain ludicrous.

I can just see the new translation now....

Luke 20:24 Show me a dollar bill. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Washington's.
25  And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Washington the things which be Washington's, and unto God the things which be God's.

[Robert_Brenchley]

He wouldn't be using Authorised Version English, would he?

'Give me a pound coin. Whose mug do you see on it?'

'The Queen's'

'Well, give her everything that's due to her, and give God what's due to him.'

[commodus]

Much as I would love to weigh in on this -- again -- from an intellectual standpoint, I won't. I have done so at length on this forum multiple times in the past.
Suffice it for me to say this: I HATE the term "tribute penny" with a passion and I think anyone using it needs a good flogging!
End of lecture.

[Robert_Brenchley]

Same here! The only thing I hate worse is 'widows' mite'. The only evidence I've been able to find regarding the Judean tribute is that Julius Caesar continued the Hasmonean custom of collecting it in grain, and that he exempted the Jews from payment in the Sabbath year. I don't know who originated the tale that it was paid in denarii, but I'd be extremely surprised if there was anything in it.