FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Roman Provincial Coins Discussion Forum => Topic started by: helvetica on October 21, 2013, 08:31:23 am
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I am putting this message in two different sections here on Forvm:
I am currently compiling lists of all the bronze coins of Lydia, assisting an author who will be writing a new corpus of the coinage of Lydia.
I am working through the cities from A onwards and am currently at M (Maeonia, Magnesia etc.)
If you have a bronze coin of Lydia which you believe is
unlisted, and would like it to be included in the new
corpus, could you please send me good images and the
information (weight, size, etc) to me by email ? (helvetica.dane at gmail.com) with the city name as the subject ?
Note: Please check whether your coin is already on
wildwinds, in which case you need not re-send it.
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Several emailed.
Tom
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Thanks Tom, I will go through them in alphabetical order and will let you
know if I have any IDs for them. I am looking in literally hundreds of places
including old pdfs.
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In case you missed the thread "Salonina from Magnesia" of the last couple of days, here is an extremely rare Salonina from Magnesia ad Sipylum. Mark Fox was kind enough to confirm the attribution and posted images of another specimen, from a Lanz auction, but mine is much nicer! A third specimen was published by Leake, Supplement to Numismata Hellenica, p.68. For full details please see the aforementioned thread.
- Francis
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P.S. Just re-read your initial post - I'll send you the information by email.
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Hi ;
i am posting this coin which i blieve unpublished...you can find it in discussion board
Regards
Nassif
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Leypold 7 in MöNG XXX-IV, 1990; Leypold I, 993
Yours is a lovely example and has the same countermark on the obverse as the Leypold
example (Artemis Anaitis, Howgego 233). In fact your coin may be from the same dies as
the Leypold coin.
I would like to use your example for wildwinds.
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Great job Helvetica. I had forgotten that I had Leopold I. It is a nice double die match including placement of the countermark on the obverse.
c.rhodes
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Any photo of the coin and some more details[size,weight,etc...] as i don't have this Ref?
Thanks
Nassif
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The Leypold coin is 30 mm, 15.20 gr. Die rotation 6°.
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@gordianguy: well, you should know me with xls files - I have made some for
several of the "big output" Lydian cities for my own use, so I can keep track of what I have
documented and what not, for when I come across what may be new types.
I won't be putting them online as otherwise nobody would buy the new catalog when it comes out.
As I may have mentioned, I am working through the cities in alphabetical order and am currently working on Thyateira. The last of the biggies, so I am on the finishing stretch. :P
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great thanks
Nassif
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@gordianguy: well, you should know me with xls files - I have made some for
several of the "big output" Lydian cities for my own use, so I can keep track of what I have
documented and what not, for when I come across what may be new types.
I won't be putting them online as otherwise nobody would by the new catalog when it comes out.
As I may have mentioned, I am working through the cities in alphabetical order and am currently working on Thyateira. The last of the biggies, so I am on the finishing stretch. :P
Well, I certainly can't wait to buy my copy of the new catalog. I sent Nassif your way because I knew you were doing Lydia and if anyone would know it would be you. I really need to take the time to put together a simple catalog of my library - with regions covered by volume - like you did!! As I add more books - and forget what each covers I find that I don't have the energy to peruse through each in search of a coin. When I saw Nassif's coin that first thing I did was go to Altinoluk's book, which as we already know, is not a book about coins. Then I looked up at the shelf of books and said ah heck with it - go see Helvetica(!!!) she'll know!
thanks for being there as a great resource...
c.rhodes
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go see Helvetica(!!!)
You know I REALLY had to laugh when I saw that. In my wild youth as a rocker (i.e. a motorcycle rider and active member of the 59 club) I used to know a lot about Triumph motorcycles and all the spare part numbers etc. as I had worked for years in my school holidays in the spare parts department of a big motorcycle and Triumphs became my speciality. So down at the 59 club, when anyone had a problem with a Triumph, they used to say "go and see Dane". ;D
Cataloging all your pdfs takes time, but if you sort them into regions then just do the small/short ones first, you can get through them. What you could do is just add bookmarks in the pdf, then use a bookmark-copying tool, save them as a text file then copy and paste them into Excel. That way you don't have to write everything twice. (Having said that I still do them all the long way = twice)
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Just a quick update on my Lydian research.
After slogging through all the cities from A... onwards, I am just finishing Tralles and am about to start Tripolis. The list of consulted books, websites, coin shops, pdfs, offprints, public and private collections (e.g. Mark Fox who finds the most remarkable coins at auctions) is tremendous but I am looking forward to the end of the Tripolis list !
At a rough count (Word pages x an average of 7.5 coin entries per page) I currently have 5,798 coins (AE only!!) documented, including all the various monograms. (To explain how I read monograms, see
www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/lydia/sardes/reading_monograms.html
in the Sardes section of wildwinds.)
The initiator of the project is hopefully coming to visit in mid-October and I hope to be able to tell him that I have finished.
So root amongst your coins and if you have any Lydian coins with a question mark against them, please do send them by email to me (see my profile for my email address) so I can check them against my lists.
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Dane,
This is Tabala, same dies as Waddington 5304 which you illustrate on Wildwinds.
Source: from Andreas Reich (antike-muenzen) via eBay, 22 Feb. 2015, 33-4 mm, 17.97 g, 6h. His picture.
Two corrections in your transcription of the legends:
On obv. just CE, not CEOY.
On rev. an A seems to have been omitted from the archon's name:
[EΠI] - AΓΘHΦ - O - POY; should be
AΓAΘHΦ - O - POY.
The second A was apparently left out.
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Hello Dane,
Here you go.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=102655.0
All the best,
Eric
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(Reply copied from another part of Forvm)
I wrote to G & N when this auction was still active and told them that it was
Milne, Oxford 3 in NC 1939.
They asked me for a copy of the entry from that Journal, which I sent them,
with the image if I remember correctly - almost a month before the auction ended,
but they did not change the description.
I have done this with numerous Lydian coins which they describe as "unpublished"
but they never change the description in the auction, possibly because it would play
havoc with the listings copied to places such as CoinAirchives, Sixbid etc.
Mind you, G & N have a helluva lot of Lydian (and other) coins which ARE unlisted -
I have found four in their current auction and probably 8 others since the beginning
of 2015.
With "unlisted" I mean that they are not in any of the hundreds of lists, collections,
journals, books, pdfs etc. which I consulted. (including spending a small fortune on
books I needed... but thanks to Uncle John Aiello I didn't need to buy ALL the ones
I needed. :)
I will copy this reply to the "unlisted Lydian Coins wanted" thread as well.
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Dane:
Something I used to own.
Iwaniw
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It's a beauty and has been on wildwinds for a while, firstly under Zach's beastcoins
name, and since then as "ex beastcoins, ex Iwanwi of Forum Ancient Coins" :)
It's
Waddington 2686; Paris 1824.
A really lovely coin.
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Hi Dane:
Thanks for the identification. I did not check for it on Wildwinds. I believe it is also ex. Virgil Brand collection.
Iwaniw
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Hi All;
I guess it's Julia Domna from Hypaepa which needs Ref??
AE 28mm-15,4g-6h
Thanks for any help
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Very nice !
Julia Domna. 193-217. Magistrate Ti. Fl. Herodos Papionos.
IOYLIA CEBACTH (clockwise from top right), draped bust right, countermark: Artemis Anaitis facing (Howgego 233).
EPI CTR T FL PAPIWNOC HRWDOY YPAIPHNWN (H-R W-D O-Y across fields, YPAIPHNWN in exergue), Cult image of Artemis Anaitis facing, wearing polos and veil.
AE 30 mm.
Imhoof Lydische Stadtmünzen* 16.
(Usually abbreviated to "Imhoof LS")
I would like to use this for wildwinds. There is no image of this coin in Imhoof.
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Great Thanks-Imhoof Lydische Stadtmünzen* 16. is the Ref??Any other Ref?Rarity?
Regards
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Yes, Imhoof LS 16 is definitely the reference for this coin. But as I say, there are no
images of the coin in "Lydische Stadtmünzen" and it is not in any of the old Imhoof
collection sale's catalogs.
I have not found this coin anywhere else, including Altinoluk, Niggeler, Prowe, Mionnet,
various volumes of SNG Turkey, SNG von Aulock, SNG Copenhagen, numerous collections,
pdfs etc. It is listed only in Imhoof.
There are similar ones but not all with the magistrate's second name of Herodos.
- Bergama Museum collection no. 1651 (with Herodos) but they list theirs without EPI.
- SNG Turkey, Tire museum has loads of Domna coins with this reverse, but without the
magistrate's second name of Herodos, only the name Papionos, e.g. Tire 397 with
W-N across the fields, but that is the end of the city name, plus on that one, Domna's
name runs clockwise from bottom left, not top right.
So I would say yours is quite scarce.
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Many thanksssssssss for your valuable & very scholar study...
Regards
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LYDIA, Saiita Hadrian AE 31 Tyche Vis á vis Hadrian
Reference.
RPC 3, 2543A; Aufhauser auction 1992 Lot 317
Magistrate.
Cl. Machairiôn (archon)
Obv. ΑΥΤ ΤΡΑ ΑΔΡΙΑΝΟС ΚΑΙСΑΡ [СΕΒΑС]
Laureate and cuirassed bust of Hadrian, right
Rev. ΕΠΙ ΚΛ ΜΑΧΑΙΡΙΩΝΟС[ ΑΡΧ СΑΙΤΤΗΝΩΝ?]
Tyche of Saiita with mural crown left, clasping hands with togate Emperor right.
14.66 gr
31 mm
7h
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Thanks for this one Erik, I didn't have it in my list.
But from the curved lines on Hadrian's back on the obverse, I would say it is laureate and draped (and perhaps cuirassed as well, similar to Imhoof 160 in RSN 1913; Winterthur 3886) instead of laureate and cuirassed. The obverse of the plate coin (Roma seated) of Hadrian in RPC (2543) appears to be from the same obverse die but appears to have a |__| cutout on Hadrian's back but yours has curved lines.
Imhoof describes his coin as laureate, draped and cuirassed.
Also, your coin should be described as Tyche standing right... and... the emperor standing left, not the other way round. Descriptions are from the viewer's standpoint - (ah, you probably mean Tyche on the left and the emperor on the right...)
Where did you get the RPC 3, 2543A reference from ? Is there already a supplement to RIC III ?
I will add it to the list.
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thank you, indeed mixed left and right will correct that.
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3383122
here a better similar bust on 2e type
best
eric
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Hi again, Dane, and thanks for this fine work in progress. Since you've posted to Isegrim Extended I imagine you've already picked up these Lydian issues, but if not, they are probably worth a look (a lot more worth a look if you still have access to old Coin Archives listings, which I don't):
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=49390.msg307622#msg307622
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=49390.25 (several entries; just search "Lydia")
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Dane,
Just in case you haven't seen them yet, there is an upcoming auction
with a very large number of Lydian coins therein. Their auction (52.II)
ends early April, run by a dealer formerly from Munich, but now based
in Vienna (I am sure you can work out who). All the best,
Walter
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In case you don't have an image of this scarce signed Serapis with Isis from Saitta, AE 18, 3.35 g (only one observed specimen in Isegrim, SNG Cop. 27.394):
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hi
take a look about this Pseudo autonomous coin of Sardis.
Checking on internet i managed to discover many specimens like mine but the obverse legend position is completely different, its starting from the right part and not the left like the others i saw.
i have no acces to BMC or any other specilezed numismatics literature, i hope this coin can help your study.
Regards Filippo
6- SARDES - PSEUDO AUTONOMOUS COINAGE, time of Caracalla 212/217 A.D.
AE 15 mm. Ø - 1,8 g. Ref: BMC Lydia 86 - Johnston 262
O/ ZЄYC ΛY_ΔIOC (Zeus Lydios). Diademed and draped bust of Zeus Lydios[1] right.
R/ CAPΔI_ANΩN (of Sardes). Herakles standing facing, head left leaning on club; lion’s skin draped over left arm.
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=230075
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=194541
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Sorry, I am 2 months late in replying about this Zeus/Herakles coin.
It is
BMC 85-86; Lindgren I A809A; Mionnet IV, 678; Paris 1167; SNG Munich 499
You will notice that the Z of ZEYC is reversed on the obverse - this is quite normal for these.
Also, because of the huge number of legend breaks, the configuration and start/end points, direction etc. of the 6500 or so Lydian bronzes which I have listed so far in preparation for the new catalog, I will not be differentiating between such differences, otherwise the book would be at least twice as long.
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LYDIA, Stratonicea Hadrian Ae. 16 Bust of Senate
Reference.
RPC III, 1776var; vA 3186var bust
Obv. ΑΥ ΤΡΑΙ ΑΔΡΙΑΝΟN
Laureate bust right, drapery on left shoulder, seen from front
Rev. ΙΝΔΙ СΤΡΑ СΥΝΚΛΗΤΟС
Draped bust of Senate, right.
2.00 gr
(weight given by seller not sure its correct)
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Very nice, Thanks E. !
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Dear Dane, as you mentioned in the Wilwinds the Julia Domna, Hermocapelia, as the Unpublished and you reference in 2017 Auction..
in my Lydian Gallery you can find this coin as Unpublished but I put there in "Aug 07, 2013" :
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-100222
:) ;) +++
Regards
Joe as Q.
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LYDIA, Tralles Sabina Ae 21 Demeter standing
A different reverse die
Reference.
RPC III, 2089; Paris 1659;SNG von Aulock -; SNG Copenhagen -; BMC -
Issue No magistrate name
Obv. СΑΒΕΙΝΑ СΕΒΑСΤΗ
Diademed and draped bust of Sabina, right
Rev. ΤΡΑΛΛΙΑΝΩΝ
Demeter standing l., holding poppy head's in her r. hand, l. resting on sceptre
5.60 gr
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@ quadrans
Julia Domna, Hermocapelia, as the Unpublished and you reference in 2017 Auction..
Yes, I have it listed in my Lydian list as Plankenhorn (Naumann) 1020 from Numis. Naumann's auction 52 in April 2017 - it is now in the John Aiello collection.
@okidoki
Ah, you bought it - (Kölner Münzkabinett auction 4, lot 188, Dec. 2017) ! I saw that they had a whole bunch of rare Lydians. Uncle John is at the ready for the unsold Lydian lots !
Eric: I am missing images of the following Sabina coins of Tralles in case you have any of them:
1) Rev: EPI APELLOY GR TRALLIANWN, eagle standing on sceptre, wings spread. Mionnet IV, 1070; RPC III 2088 (<- I can probably scan the RPC pic)
2) Rev: TRALLIANWN, Female standing left, holding sceptre and the horns of a sacrificial bull standing right before her. Mionnet Supp. VII, 713.
3) Rev: TRALLIANWN, Isis standing facing, wearing lotus headdress, holding sceptre and the infant Horus. Mionnet Supp. VII, 714.
and this Hadrian Tralles coin:
Rev: CYNKLHTOC, bare head of the Senate right. Mionnet IV, 1068.
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Julia Mamaea, mother of Severus Alexander. LYDIA, Akrasus. Æ (22mm, 5.41 gm, 6h). Obv: Draped bust right, wearing stephane. Rev:Zeus (?) standing left, holding patera and scepter. BMC__; SNG Cop__: von Aulock__.
Silver plated in antiquity, traces of which can be seen on the obverse and reverse on the image
PeteB
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Julia Mamaea, Augusta, 222-235 AD. Magnesia (ad Maeandrum, Ionia or ad Sipylum, Lydia). Æ (29mm, 10.64 gm, 6h). Obv: IOYΛIA MAMAIA CEB. Draped bust right. Rev: MAΓNHTΩN on left, ( - - -)NEOKOPΩN on lower right extending around to ex.? Bearded male (Zeus?) seated left, holding patera(?) and scepter. BMC__; SNG Cop__; von Aulock__.
PeteB
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@Akropolis (Pete).
Your first one is not Zeus, it is Athena, you can see the back part of her Corinthian helmet.
IOY MAMAIA on the obv / AKRACIWTWN, Athena standing left, holding patera and spear.
SNG von Aulock 8214; Waddington 4858; Paris 33; Vienna GR19353 (my book no. 100).
Your second one must be from Magnesia ad Maeandrum, Ionia, because Magnesia ad Sipylum, Lydia, never had Neocorus status and, in addition, most coins have CIPYLOY, CIP, C, CI, CIPY or similar to indicate which Magnesia was meant.
I can't make out the word NEOKORWN on the coin. The letters in the exergue appear to be AGORA...
In addition there seem to be too many A's down the right hand side, and something at his feet at bottom left, plus he is wearing a polos.
So I would say it is definitely Magnesia, Ionia, with Hades-Serapis seated left with Kerberos at his feet and the rev legend
MAGNHTWN EPI GR ANAXAGORA, which is Schultz 302; SNG Fitz. 4521 and 4525.
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Excellent!
Thank you, Dane. I'll go with your interpretations Your eyes are far sharper than mine!
I wish you a healthy and happy New Year.
PeteB
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I am not sure if this counts as unpublished. The inscription is curved in a way that is different from the examples on Wildwinds and in the references I have been able to check myself. I purchased this coin as unidentified from Brian Kritt because he is very good at identifying and thus this might be rare.
Lydia, Tralles, 250-1 BC, AE15, 2.93g
Obv: Zeus head right
Rev: [ΔΙ]ΟΣ ΛΑΡΑΣΙΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΣ Ε[ΥΜΕΝΟΥ]; Zebu Bull left
The inscription means "Zeus Larasios and Zeus Eumenes". "Zeus at Tralles was called Larasios from a sanctuary at the neighbouring village of Larasa. Zeus ‘Eumenes’ or ‘The Kindly’ may have had a separate sanctuary." (Barclay Head)
A similar reverse was auctioned by Kuenker eLive Auction 40, May 2016, lot 7270 attributed to "BMC -, vergl. 63 ff.; Imhoof-Blumer, Lydische Stadtmünzen vergl. 4; SNG v. Aulock -; SNG München vergl. 967 ff." but the obverse is different in style. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3095771
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Hi hel,
You are welcome to look through my Lydia coins to see if any of them are unpublished.
Here are the links:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/g_lydia_lykaon.htm
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/rp_lydia_pt01.htm
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/rp_lydia_pt02.htm
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/rp_lydia_pt03.htm
Meepzorp
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Very nice, Thanks E. !
RPC gave it RPC III, 1777A
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hi
i hope this piece could be useful for your book.
i Found just one other on asearchcoins that mark it as unpublished.
ATTALEA - GETA 198/209 A.D. (as Caesar)
AE 16 mm. Ø - 3,1 g. Unpublished
O/ Π CЄΠ ΓЄT_AC KAI Laureate and draped bust of Geta right.
R/ A_TTA_ΛЄ_ATΩΝ
Satyr advancing left, holding grape bunch with right hand and lagobolon over shoulder.
regards
Filippo
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Hi Filippo
I already have a slightly clearer one from the Pecunem Gitbud & Naumann auction 34, lot 655 (August 2015). It is an unlisted type and will be in the book using the Pecunem number as a reference, but if you send me your collection number I will add your number as well.
D.
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Lydia, Tralles, 250-1 BC, AE15, 2.93g
Obv: Zeus head right
Rev: [ΔΙ]ΟΣ ΛΑΡΑΣΙΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΣ Ε[ΥΜΕΝΟΥ]; Zebu Bull left
Hi Ed
I have this one listed already as Imhoof LS 4; SNG Munich 697-699 and John Aiello has one under "our" internal number 750.
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Hi Filippo
I already have a slightly clearer one from the Pecunem Gitbud & Naumann auction 34, lot 655 (August 2015). It is an unlisted type and will be in the book using the Pecunem number as a reference, but if you send me your collection number I will add your number as well.
D.
hi
you can use Ly12
regards
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Dane,
I don't find this coin in Wildwinds or CoinArchives Pro or a number of the usual printed sources, but maybe you already know the type and can fill out my attribution, or if unknown your friend can add it to his corpus.
Septimius Severus, Maeonia, AE 26-29, 13.36g, 6h, from Savoca Coins, eBay, 11 Feb. 2018, their picture below.
Obv: Head laureate r., faint traces of letters behind.
Rev: Hestia standing r. in temple, scepter over shoulder, same type as on BMC 37, pl. XIV.6, of Hadrian at Maeonia, and SNG Aulock 8235, of L. Verus at Maionia. Legend, beginning at 10h: EΠI.....KIANOV AP.TO.Γ. M[AI]ONΩN
Apparently this magistrate (archon) .....KIANOV AP.TO.Γ. was unknown to Head in 1901, BMC pp. lxvii f.
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Probably not Septimius Severus, looks more like Antoninus Pius, legend ƐΠΙ ΜΟVΚΙΑΝΟΡ ΑΡ ΤΟ Γ ΜΑΙΟΝΩΝ
http://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/4/9773/
(possible obverse die match)
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Many thanks for the correction!
The MOV of MOVKIANOV on the rev. can indeed be made out, once you know that probable reading.
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Yes, I had this one. It'll be no. 92 in the new book. It isn't a friend who is compiling the new corpus, I am doing it myself.
For interest: So far I have lists of just under 5,980 bronze coins of Lydia.
The finished chapters (in alphabetical order to and including Sala) consist of 3,567 coins and of these I have an average of 90.5% images plus monograms.
There are several entries in Mionnet which he had taken from Sestini, Eckhel etc, which were either misread by the original author (one, as a Faustina II from Sala with Apollo on the reverse, on the Paris website, was originally misread by Feuardent, sold to Paris and copied by Mionnet, which is actually from Alia, Phrygia). Such Mionnet entries which are certainly misread, are not included in the book. Others have been corrected.
I will be starting to number the text and images of Sala tonight.
There are still a couple of extremely large cities (as far as number of issues go) to be sorted and hundreds of images searched for.
Sardes 862 coins
Thyateira 562
Tralles 469
But it's making progress !
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So you had picked up my coin from eBay/Savoca, and corrected their misattribution (which I had seen no reason to doubt) to Septimius Severus?
Do you know other specimens of this coin, apart from the tooled Vienna example in RPC temp. that Shanxi links to above?
I am glad to hear of your progress on this important project!
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Me too. Sounds like a great book.
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So you had picked up my coin from eBay/Savoca, and corrected their misattribution (which I had seen no reason to doubt) to Septimius Severus?
Yes, I saw it on ebay and corrected it to Antoninus Pius when I added it to my list.
Do you know other specimens of this coin, apart from the tooled Vienna example in RPC temp. that Shanxi links to above?
No, that one on RPC online was the only one I had listed. The Savoca sale will be added but I forgot to use his item number (usually at the end of the title in the sale, do you have it ?).
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Different from the eBay no. 263469101870?
Last item in Savoca's description: GGG13551.
Is that number useful? Generally I record the eBay number, but not the dealer's item number.
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Thankyou Curtis, it was the GGG13551 I needed. The ebay numbers are a bit unwieldy and are generated by ebay. The GGG13551 is Matteo's own number.