Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Anon 11th Century Mule? Christ Enthroned + Virgin Orans: Byzantine or Crusader?  (Read 1167 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline lv88

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 389
    • Armenian Numismatic Page
Hi All,

Been seeing a lot more of these come up recently at auction.
Seems to be of origin in Turkey. I wonder if this is a Byzantine issue or any publication has dealt with this cryptic type?

Based on finds I assume it may be either associated with Danishmendids or Crusaders in Either Edessa or Antioch.
Weights range from 5.7 to 3.3 to 2.7 ...

Any thoughts appreciated

Offline Vladislav D

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 732
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=119081.msg721451#msg721451
I have two examples . First coin overstruck on follis of Baldwin II ,Count of Edessa CCS 11.

Offline Vladislav D

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 732
Two more

Offline Byzantofil

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
In general, this is an interesting question. Recently, one of these coins passed through the eBay. In addition, one of the best examples of this type of folles, originating from the Wolfgang Leimenstoll Collection, was sold several years ago. I attach the photo below. In the annotation W. Leimenstoll indicated the following:

This coin has been discussed by Simon Bendall in BSFN 2002, p.148-152 "Un follis anonyme byzantin oublie" where he suggests an attribution to a provincial mint in the southeast.

I couldn't find that Bendall's article online. If you're more lucky, share this information, please. Judging by the photographs of these coins, there was not only one pair of dies, but at least two. So to determine the possible origin of these coins, we need to determine the type of host coins taken as coin blanks for re-strike some surviving samples — there are at least two such coins, if not more. I don’t think this is Danishmendid coinage. It's also not very similar to the Sicilian coinage, although here I am less sure. Most likely, either the Crusaders, or some kind of small-circulation official or semi-official regional coinage in Asia Minor under Alexus I Comnenus or his heirs.

Offline Vladislav D

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 732
Thank you Byzantofil . I bought many coins from Wolfgang , but it seems that I missed this one  :)
Here is the Bendall article https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k3042324r/f8.item.r=%22Un%20follis%20anonyme%20byzantin%20oublie%22.zoom
Seems like I forgot to mention the weight of the examples in my previous post :
3.5 gr
22mm/ 4gr
20 mm/3.35 gr
3.27 gr

And another example
23mm/ 4.1 gr
Best regards,
Vlad .

Offline Byzantofil

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
Another one such coin was sold recently. It is clearly visible that this coin were minted on follis, which very reminded me the anonymous follis Class I. Under the figure of the Virgin, traces of the cross with characteristic elements are visible. But the cross has plane ends of the cross, while on the Class I folles, the cross has smooth rounded outlines. On the reverse, there are traces of the left half of the bust of Christ, which also well visible. Probably the host coin may bу Baldwin I (1098-1100) or Baldwin II, first reign (1100-1104) follis, minted in County of Edessa (it very close in design to class I follis).

New coin, according some information, comes from the province of Malatya, Turkey. It is not far from the Antioch and the former Principality of Edessa. So, the S. Bendall's version seems quite realistic to me. He notices that:

“...The copy from the Bates collection is particularly important because it is over-struck on the second copper issue of the Prince of Antioch, Tancred (end 1104 - December 1112)...

...No copy of this new anonymous Byzantine type has apparently been found in the western provinces of the empire... ...The three coins that I acquired before 1987 all came from what can be called an “Asian” source, while George Bates had formed almost all of his collection in Turkey.

That is why it is more plausible to think of a temporary mint in Asia Minor. As far as the dating is concerned, I will hypothetically suggest between around 1105/1106 and around 1118, 1105/1106 because of the Tancred coinage over-strike, and 1118 because it is unlikely that anonymous follis were minted after the death of Alexius I and because the princes of Antioch stopped minting copper coins of this module after 1120. In addition, in my experience, most overprints are generally practiced on coins older than a few years and still in circulation”.

Offline Byzantofil

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
Sorry for the crude translation french Bendall text :(

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity