Author Topic: Faustina II Struck or Cast? (Read 1432 times)

Jay GT4 · « **on:** June 12, 2011, 08:47:56 am »

Here is a coin I purchased in 2008. From the photo everything looked great. Unfortunately I don't have the original seller's photo. It came from a very reputable seller who I've never had problems with before. When I got it in hand however I noticed what some call "pearls" or tiny round bits in around the portrait and that it was light. After re-weighing it the coin weighs 2.65g. I originally posted in the Authentication section in 2008:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=46178.0

The conclusion was that it was authentic. I also showed it to a few dealers who all thought it to be authentic, so I thought it was settled. However a few days ago I posted it in the BOT gallery because I believe it had a beautiful and delicate young portrait of Faustina. A member questioned the authenticity and in a PM said he had seen the same type with the same "pearls". See here:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=72258.0

Joe also voiced his concern. So in response (and I thank you all very much for bringing this back up), I have snapped new pictures. They have not been touched up in photoshop and have been taken in natural light. Pictures are clickable for nice big images. All comments are warmly welcome...

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2011, 05:52:15 pm »

Nobody willing to go out on a limb on this one?

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2011, 06:07:34 pm »

Some more of the reverse:

Joe Sermarini · « **Reply #3 on:** June 12, 2011, 07:49:30 pm »

A well done cast, or genuine and burned in a fire? The photos are good but for this coin, photos are not enough for me.

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 12, 2011, 08:01:38 pm »

Thanks Joe, my original concern was only the "pearls". As someone mentioned in the other thread there are nice flow lines on the reverse. The edge shows no sign of a seam and the small cracks go right through (on an angle which makes it look filled in). It is light. There is a show coming up in a few weeks where several dealers will be present. I will take this for evaluation. I can also ask a very well respected numismatist who works here in Toronto John R. Gainor.

Any other comments?

marrk · « **Reply #5 on:** June 12, 2011, 08:17:58 pm »

if silver (alloy) pass through the fire, sprouting papila.I guess that Faustina has fallen fire, 2 Century.papilla of 2 century.maybe.

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2011, 08:45:03 pm »

I have contacted the original owner of this coin and directed him to this thread. Hopefully he will chime in either on this thread or to me via email. I will not reveal where it came from unless the seller decides to say himself. Looking forward to the discussion.

My opinion is that it is authentic...not because I own it

but because of having it in hand and from who it came from.

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2011, 11:05:19 pm »

Got a response from the seller and original owner of the coin via email. He said to the best of his recollection he got the coin from CNG and he believes it to be authentic. Of course that is no guarantee but it does mean that this coin has gone through quite a few reputable and experienced hands before coming into my possession. I will show it to John R. Gainor and the dealers who are going to be at the show in a few weeks. I must also say that the flaws are really not that visible in hand, it's really only under magnification that they become so predominant. In hand it has a smooth appearance and that is why I put it in the BOT gallery. I will try to get a photo of what it actually looks like in hand.

Marrk, you stated in a PM that you had similar coins of this type that were fake. Please post them so we can compare style and fabric. This could be a great learning tool.

marrk · « **Reply #8 on:** June 13, 2011, 07:12:51 pm »

small experiment

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 13, 2011, 07:34:30 pm »

Good. Thanks Marrk.

I see some similarities but I also see some differences. First the posted coin has the same "pearls" that the Faustina has although they seem to be more spread out on the coin whereas the Faustina seems to be localized to the top of the coin and much closer together. It also shows flow lines as if being struck as does the Faustina. Convincing cracks that appear to be old. A good cast would also have flow lines. However on the Faustina the details are much sharper. For example look how sharp the hair on the back of her neck is, as well as her eye and the letters in "FAVSTINA" showing off even a clogged die yet still keeping sharp details.

So, is it real or cast?

marrk · « **Reply #10 on:** June 13, 2011, 08:14:03 pm »

Jay GT4, language.obstacle
Faustina is not casting. in the second century. Faustina has fallen into a fire. my coin. was also in fire. whether it will grow 10 or 200 papilla irrelevant

daverino · « **Reply #11 on:** June 13, 2011, 08:52:27 pm »

Hi all

Perhaps this denarius fell into a fire too? It has little bumps around the letters too. The details are as sharp as you could ask for, and it is phony as a three-dollar bill. In fact it is of Sterling silver.

Do you notice that the bust bears a marked similarity to Marrks coin? Different in the details but the same face and different from any other sevvy alexander I have seen since - this was the first denarius i ever bought.

So if Marrks coin is also fake then the fakers have mastered the art of making a convincing edge crack. Very depressing.

Regards, Dave

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 13, 2011, 09:58:53 pm »

Dave I think what is being jumbled in the translation is that Marrk believes his coin as well as mine (Faustina II) are authentic. Are you now second guessing yours? As areich says "not every bump or pit is a sign of casting"

daverino · « **Reply #13 on:** June 14, 2011, 12:07:50 am »

Hi Jay

I know that my 'denarius' is fake because its silver content is 3 times what it should be for a Severan coin. There is no question that it is a cast for that and other reasons including the casting pearls. I was remarking on a couple of points.

1) I cannot recall a Sev Alex coin that did not depict him with delicate, almost feminine features. My coin and Marrk's are are quite different in this respect - his even with a Caracalla snarl!. Arguments of this kind are tenuous but nevertheless.

2) The issue of fire damage. I show dealer photos of a coin being offered on eBay- an Antiochos VII T'drachm- that is covered with these papillae. I have no trouble believing that this coin was in a fire and so will never be a candidate for "Best of Type". The dealer is a reputable guy, I believe.

4) I cannot find anything about just what causes these papillae to occur on silver but it looks to me that the coin must be near melting and burning. Are the few bumps on our coin's otherwise pristine surfaces consistent with this?

5) The most convincing thing about Mark's coin is the edge crack(s). It is the only reason that I would have any confidence in it.

Joe Sermarini · « **Reply #14 on:** June 14, 2011, 12:18:29 pm »

I believe when a coin is burned in a fire, small pockets of gas within the flan expand and this may create these small bumps, bigger lumps, lamination defects and even waves in the coin. Of course if the fire is hot enough, melting can also occur and those impacts could be even more dramatic. Fire damage can resemble casting flaws, especially in photos. In hand, usually it is easier to tell the difference.

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 15, 2011, 07:18:20 pm »

Thanks Joe. Putting all of this together I believe my Faustina II is authentic. I will still show it in a few weeks...

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 25, 2011, 03:34:04 pm »

Showed this coin to 5 dealers/collectors of ancients today. 2 of them [REMOVED BY ADMIN], one a local respected dealer, a serious collector and John Gainor.

All of them unquestionably believe the coin authentic and had no problems with the pearls. Two said it may be die rust but that in their opinion it was not in a fire.

Joe Sermarini · « **Reply #17 on:** June 25, 2011, 08:32:22 pm »

Perhaps it looks very different in hand, but based on the photos, I still don't think die rust can explain the appearance of your coin. Based on the photos, I still believe there are only two options, fire, or fake.

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 25, 2011, 09:25:14 pm »

Yes it does look very different in hand. As mentioned the lighting really makes these "pearls" stand out. I wish I could get a photo of what it really looks like. All of them agreed it was a very nice early portrait of Faustina II and that is what originally drew me to the coin.

Thanks everyone for your informative posts.

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Author Topic: Faustina II Struck or Cast? (Read 1432 times)

marrk

marrk

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