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Author Topic: Provincial Domitian?  (Read 2336 times)

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Offline Marjan E

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Provincial Domitian?
« on: May 19, 2007, 10:26:05 pm »
Hello :)  I am really feeling the lack of a reference book now :(  got to remedy this soon.  When I first looked at the reverse of this coin, I couldn't make out what kind of design it had on it.  It was only when I backed off a little that I realized it was a face! LOL  I've looked through all Forum's provincials for something with this strange crown but found nothing exactly the same.  The coin is from Syria.  I found crowns that looked a little similar on a Domitian and on a Phillip coin.

The real plus to this for me was the introduction to the provincial coins.  I'm in love!

Many thanks for your help

Mark Farrell

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2007, 11:26:20 pm »
I don't know who the emperor is yet, but the coin is not from Syria, but is from Carrhae in Mesopotamia. The reverse legend should be something similar to: COL MET ANTO NINIANA AVR ALEX. The reverse is a turreted bust of Tyche (city goddess). The "turreted" means she is wearing a crown that is composed of city walls.

I will try to identify the emperor when I can, but I don't think it is Domitian, more likely a much later emperor. MORE I'd think it is Caracalla, but cannot completely confirm this. Perhaps someone else can provide more info?

I tried to find the coin on wildwinds and coinarchives, but no matches. I don't have very good references for Carrhae, perhaps someone with the BMC volume for this region can match up the coin.

Mark

PS Be sure to look up Carrhae in wikipedia.org -- a very interesting history! This is where Crassus was defeated and captured by the Parthians in 64 BC and where Caracalla was murdered at the instigation of Macrinus.

Offline Marjan E

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2007, 02:19:47 am »
Thank you very much Mark :).  I did indeed find the history of the battle interesting.  I belong to the SCA, so I am very much into history and historical crafts.  The information about the crown is fascinating.  I thought it looked a little weird, but put this down to the fact that it was a provincial coin.

I would like to buy some books myself and would appreciate some suggestions.  I know that everyone seems to like the Sears (though I understand they now comprise five volumes?)  Pretty expensive to buy all five since they seem to run about $140 each.  I have bought the program that uses the line drawings and have found it quite helpful, though not in depth at all.  My second line of inquiry is usually to check out the catalogues on Forum and other sites.

This coin did not cost me very much, but I am finding it very interesting.

Marjan

bakkar

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2007, 09:13:49 am »
Hi Marjan
He is caracalla and you can find it listed at Lindgren I #2565
 BMC16; and  SGI 2702

You can also find it at wildwinds:

http://www.wildwinds.com:80/coins/ric/caracalla/_carrhae_AE18_SGI_2702.jpg


regards
Bakkar

Mark Farrell

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2007, 12:07:20 pm »
Bakkar -- thanks for the backup! I couldn't confirm Caracalla -- glad you entered the thread.

Marjan -- I think the best single book for starting with Provincials, across the entire range of Roman provinces, is probably Sear's Greek Imperial Coins. It is by no means complete -- I heard that there are something like 100,000 (give or take) different Roman provincial coins, so no one book, or even series of books (like BMC) contains them all.

The other Sears books are very good, just not focused on provincials. I know there are two on Greek coins (I have them) and then a series on Roman imperial coins (don't have those), and any of them are worth having.

Another very basic book -- not a catalogue -- on Roman provincials is by Kevin Butcher, Roman Provincial Coins: An Introduction to the Greek Imperials. It is a decent, general introduction. Not enough detail for anything serious, but I think it helps people appreciate the coins a bit more. Most people I know who are more experienced collectors were a little let down by this book because it is so general. Even so, Kevin Butcher also published what I believe is the single best book ever on the Roman coinage of northern Syria. This is a big, expensive book, so start with the simple stuff first.

Finally, Wayne Sayles did a series of books on ancient coin collecting. I think there are six of them. One of them, Ancient Coin Collecting IV: Roman Provincial Coins, is also a good introduction to this topic and has a decent bibliography at the end of each geographic section, which is helpful for drilling into something that interested you. Everytime I think I have grown past one of these books, I find something new to learn by simply browsing the pages.

If you become interested in provincial coins, try to pick up representative coins from the various provinces and major mints. They can be wildly different from each other, even for the same emperor. You may then discover that a specific type or location especially interests you, which is really helpful when collecting Roman provincials -- there are simply so many of the them that no one can ever collect them all.

Good luck,

Mark

Offline Marjan E

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2007, 06:05:50 pm »
Many thanks for your replies Mark and Bakkar.  It was very helpful to have those links Bakkar. :)This has really stimulated my interest in provincial coins.  I notice that quite a few of the older ones are in somewhat better shape as well. 

I have a further favor to ask Mark.  You can me some wonderful advice on reference books for provincials.  I will be continuing to collect Repulbican and Imperial Roman coins as well.  I would appreciate some advice on reference books to own for these.  I have seen some advertisments for a program called Moneta.  Is this just for storing your personal coins and their attributes?  Or is there a database for attribution as well? 

Thanks again,

Marjan

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2007, 06:26:56 pm »
I was thinking that the honorary title Alexandriana in the rev. legend might honor Severus Alexander and so require a latter date for the coin, but the true explanation is given by BMC, p. xci:

"The great outburst of coinage under Caracalla is to be connected with his use of this district as a base for his eastern campaigns.  It was in setting out in 214 for his first expedition that, as Herodian states, 'suddenly he turned into Alexander the Great', and accordingly we find that the colony received the title Alexandriana."

Marjan's coin is stylistically very similar to BM 21 of Caracalla, pl. XII.14.
Curtis Clay

Offline Marjan E

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2007, 06:31:57 pm »
Thanks Curtis :)  Doh, I have reread the advert from the seller and found a further comment I missed before.  Thought you might be interested in this.  DECAPOLIS, PHILADELPHIA?!  M. AURELIUS.

This images of Caracalla certainly seem to fit the bill.  I laughed when I saw the word decapolis, thinking of some kind of beheading. ;)

Marjan

Offline Marjan E

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2007, 07:01:15 pm »
Now I feel really dumb.  While researching the word decapolis, I found out that this refers to 10 cities.  deca  polis.  Oh well, learning a lot as I go. :)

Offline Marjan E

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2007, 07:18:23 pm »
I'm excited.  I think I found the closest match yet, right under my own nose.  I tried to search the catalogue here, but obviously did a bad job of it because there is a whole other catalogue of provincials.  I found these two images and the crown/headress is very similar to my coin, plus the face bears a close ressemblance.  Let me know what you think. :)

Marjan

Mark Farrell

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2007, 01:41:00 am »
Curtis -- Exactly what information we needed from BMC. Thank you!

Marjan, meet Curtis Clay, who is a distinguished numismatist and quite a nice fellow. And he's very tall, grin. When Curtis provides input, pay close attention -- you are guaranteed to learn something.

Decapolis is a loose term for a cluster of ten cities in ancient Judea and in Southern Syria. They were so named by Pliny the Elder. Philadelphia is one of those. You may know that city for it's modern name -- it is Amman, capital of Jordan! All of these but one were east of the Jordan river. The other cities were Gerasa, Scythopolis, Hippos, Gadara, Pella, Dion, Canatha, Raphana, and finally Damascus. (source wikipediaSpijkerman was a scholar who wrote a nice book on coinage from this area, but he expanded the list to 18 cities to cover the region of Arabia as well.

Regarding other sources for Roman coins... Certainly if you are a beginning collector, then get the Wayne Sayles volume for Roman imperial coins. He will address many things that a beginning collector needs to get grounded on first.

When it comes to catalogs... I presume when you say "republican" that you mean republican silver coinage? If so, the Roman Silver Coins is probably your best bet. It is a set of books actually, (I think five?) and each volume covers a specific time period. I don't collect many silver coins, so I don't have any of these.

I purchased Roman Imperial Coins in my first year collecting. It is a set of books with each volume covering imperial coinage for a set of emperors. It isn't cheap but is generally worth it. If you have a specific interest, say, in Hadrian, then you would only need Volume 2. You can buy them as a set (cheaper) or individually. The total set is over a thousand dollars, I think. Abbreviated by many people as RIC. There are some issues with the later volumes, which are seriously due for an update because so many coins have come to market over the past 10 years from the Balkans and Middle East (in particular, rarity ratings in the later volumes are questionable, though still reasonable for comparative purposes).

David Sears has a set of three books, Vols 1, 2, 3 of Roman Coins and their Values. Good stuff, I hear, but I don't personally own them. If I need pricing guidance, I use www.coinarchives.com or www.wildwinds.com or online catalogs or other collectors I trust. Abbreviated RCV.

I've heard good things about a book specifically on late Roman bronze coins by (don't remember this accurately, I'm sure) by Falz (something, at least the name begins this way) -- I don't own it (obviously) but I'm sure someone in Books and References can help you out on this one. I don't think it is very expensive either, and very helpful if you begin by cleaning coins, most of which will be late Roman bronzes.

Personally, a set of books that are more recent that RIC, and thus more accurate, is Coins of the Roman Empire in the British Museum, 6 Volumes by H. Mattingly. It is about $750. I am currently saving for those volumes and will probably order them next month. They are abbreviated BMCRE (BMC is the similar series, much older, of Greek coins in the British Museum).

When people way to buy the book first, believe them. It dramatically increases your knowledge and your enjoyment of this hobby. It can, unfortunately, be damned expensive!

Ok, I'm running out of steam here, and I'm sure other people can offer their advice -- you might consider posting a query for advice in the Book and References section. I'd also suggest browsing many of the threads in that discussion group because there is good information there.

Moneta is a database program for storing info on your collection. It can also be used to assist in attribution because it stores a lot of information that you can search upon (names of provincial cities, obv and rev legends on both provincial and imperial coinage, etc.). I own it and use it.

Do not underestimate the value of online resources such as coinarchives and wildwinds. Both are very helpful.

There are many, many, MANY books on ancient coins. Some of them are very specific, some are general. My advice, such as it is, is to stick to the general books for now. Oh, yes, and many of them were published in other languages. AMNG is a classic reference for provincials in the Balkan region -- it is in German. Recuil General covers provincials in Asia Minor -- in French. Varbanov has editions in both Bulgarian and English.

Just for fun, the references I use most frequently are these: Roman Provincial Coins, vol 1 and 2, Butcher's Coinage of Roman Syria, Sear's Greek Imperial Coins, Roman Imperial Coins (RIC), BMC Galatia,Spijkerman's Coins of the Decapolis and Provincial Arabia, Prier's Syro-Phoenician Tetradrachms, Varbanov English editions Vol 1 and 2 (Vol 3 on order), wildwinds.com, coinarchives.com, ISENGRIM (a database of coins catalogued in many standard references for Asia Minor), and (perhaps most importantly) the gentle, patient, and deeply experienced people who participate in these discussions via FORVM.

Mark

Offline Marjan E

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2007, 01:57:05 am »
WOW Mark :D

Thanks a bunch for your detailed reply.  This is very useful to me.  I have copy pasted all this information into my computer so that I can gradually purchase these books.  In the meantime, I am reading and picking people's brains.

You and the others on this site have been so generous of your time and expertise.  This has enhanced my enjoyment of my new hobby immensely.  The only way I can thank you is to express my sincere gratitude.

Hugs to all of you!

Marjan

Douglas

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2007, 02:49:59 am »
I have Sear "Roman Coins and Their Values" volumes I and II, and will purchase III in the next month. I find them an excellent general reference. His "Byzantine Coins and their Values" is essential for someone with that interest, and I have it and use it as well. Since I clean a lot of coins, I use Helvetica's RIC lists which are mostly for late roman bronze coins. They are lists in Excel format that are absolutely ingenious for identifying coins. I think all future references should include such a list, and I can see a time when a book is obsolete for this. The lists can be found here:

http://www.catbikes.ch/coinstuff/coins-ric.htm

When you find a focus, you can buy specific references for that. The references that commonly come up in coin descriptions from good dealers like Forum are the ones to buy. RIC is an excellent reference, but not all the volumes are great. RIC V which covers one of my personal interests is very lacking, and I won't purchase it.

Doug

(As a footnote, and not to pick on Mark, one of my pet peeves is when folks call Sear "Sears". He's not related to the people that sell Craftsman tools where there's more for your life. We shouldn't add an S to his name any more than we should add an O to the beginning of Mark's surname.)

Offline Marjan E

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2007, 03:21:26 pm »
Hello Everyone :)  Many thanks for the reference Curtis (I hear you are tall ;))  Please bear with me guys, I know it seems easy to you to use the short forms of some of these references, but I'm having a little trouble. 

Thanks for the RIC site Doug.  I have been trying to access your Reference Curtis.  Is this a British Museum number?  Sorry to seem so stupid, but as I said I'm floundering a bit with the short forms for reference books and sites, and I would really like to understand. :)

Thanks

Marjan

Mark Farrell

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2007, 03:57:57 pm »
Marjan,

BMC is short for Catalogue of Greek Coins in the British Museum. This is a 29 volume set of books that were published between 1873-1927. Each volume addresses a specific geographic region or city. The one for Mesopotamia also covers Arabia and Persia.

The volume name is not usually included in the citation because it can easily be inferred from the location, e.g., BMC 21 means coin number 21 in the BMC volume that covers your location, thus BMC Mesopotamia, Arabia, and Persia.

The BMC volumes are not available online. However, if you have a cool $2,000 (or more), you can pick up the entire set. They can also be purchased individually. FORVM has all of them for sale in the Catalog > Books > Greek section. Actually, what is for sale are reprints that were made back in the early seventies (I think) of the original volumes.

Some of the material is dated, but there is no more comprehensive resource for all Greek coinage. Incidentally, this includes some "Greek Imperials" (aka Roman provincials) as well as pre-Roman coinage. It does not address Roman imperial coins. For that there is another set of BMC books, abbreviated BMCRE to distinguish between the two sets. The Roman series is only three volumes and is Coins of the Roman Empire in the British Museum.

Mark

Offline Marjan E

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2007, 04:02:22 pm »
Thanks a lot Mark :)  Again you come to my rescue!

Marjan

Offline Marjan E

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2007, 04:44:04 pm »
Hi Mark,

Hmm, I can't seem to access (xxviii) Arabia, Mesopotamia, Persia (Hill, 1922) [Reprint, Forni, 1960s]  from the British museum catalogue.  There doesn't seem to be a link.

http://snible.org/coins/bmc/

I must be doing something wrong,

Marjan

Mark Farrell

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Re: Provincial Domitian?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2007, 07:02:40 pm »
That site is not from the British Museum. It provides access to images of plates from some of the volumes, but not all of them. The one for Mesopotamia is not available.

I think (someone would need to confirm this) that some of the ones up there are because the copyright has expired thus it is legal to put them up online. The volume for Mesopotamia was one of the last ones published, so the copyright is probably still in effect.

Mark

 

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