Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Byzantine fire grenades  (Read 1305 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wileyc

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1426
    • Forum gallery:
Byzantine fire grenades
« on: June 19, 2020, 04:06:37 pm »
So sort of off hand question.

Occasionally I have seen clay I think byzantine fire grenades , I am familiar with their history at least with casual per usual from varied  auction houses and such.

Is there a reference I wonder for these? Seems fakes would be a big concern, wondering if anyone has collected or acquired one?

Cw


Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Byzantine fire grenades
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2020, 09:23:06 am »
There is absolutely no proof that these items, which have been labelled fire-grenades or Greek-fire containers since the 19th century are truly for such purposes, despite the claims made by many a vendor.

They are actually Arabic and not Byzantine items.  They date from 9th to 15 century (especially 12th to 13th c) and are found across the Islamic world from North Africa to Central Asia.

In archaeological terms they are known today as Sphero-conical vessels.

You can find several papers online that outline the variety of modern interpretations which include: fire starters, parts of early hookah-like water pipes, alcohol containers, containers for alchemical materials such as mercury, drug containers, perfume containers.

While it is clear that they contained a liquid and have a very narrow neck which means they had to be filled using a funnel and could only our out a slow stream, a key problem is that none are known to have any chemical residue in them - which may be from archaeologists or looters washing them.

They key arguments against them being fire grenades are:
- many are ornate, glazed and/or decorated and this appears to make little sense for an item to be destroyed;
- they are too large to throw far when filled but too small to throw with a mangonel or catapult;
- and most importantly, the very few found in actual properly documented archaeological excavation appear to all be found in domestic contexts with cooking pots, vessels, ovens and lamps.

To me this last point is the most damning. The context clearly implies that they are kitchen-related.

Some authors supporting the grenade theory have used as evidence the fact that several have been found near fortresses or in fortified areas of cities.  However, this should not be confused with full archaeological context.  The fortified areas of cities and areas near fortresses includes military weapon storage sites but they also include everything else - military barracks and administrative buildings, but also the shops, houses, mosques, landfill/garbage, etc. of those people living in the area.  In none of these cases was the actual proper find spot identifiable.  So in terms of exact locational evidence we only have the kitchens....

See for example the article: A Note on “Grenades” as Fire-starter Flasks by Donald Whitcomb of the University of Chicago

and

The Sphero-conical Vessel: A Difficult Interpretation between Historical Sources and Archaeology by Stéphane Pradines of Aga Khan University.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline wileyc

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1426
    • Forum gallery:
Re: Byzantine fire grenades
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2020, 12:04:27 am »
Thank you.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity