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Author Topic: Suspicious Karystos didrachm  (Read 842 times)

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Offline Din X

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Suspicious Karystos didrachm
« on: August 24, 2018, 04:02:27 am »


Reverse die

IBSCC Bulletin on Counterfeits BOCS Vol 12 No.1 1987 Page 3 Fig 4b

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-9881

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=~x~HclmeUJ9kA=

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=~x~RMgu8A0cRY=

Averse die

IBSCC Bulletin on Counterfeits BOCS Vol 12 No.1 1987 Page 3 Fig 1b

IBSCC Bulletin on Counterfeits BOCS Vol 12 No.1 1987 Page 3 Fig 1c

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-9876

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?mode=6Q/zOXMHeZ0=&id=s4ya7RA/1Pg=

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=oIBLDwGaj0Y=

Probably made in the 1930s these dubious staters have appeared on the market for decades. They are stuck, mostly on irregular flans, and often have an artificially crystallized surface. Apparently two obverse and reverse dies were used to make the fake examples.

Offline arash p

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Re: Suspicious Karystos didrachm
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2018, 11:18:32 pm »
Thanks Din for sharing this. I didn't know they can fake crystallization. I always read that is very hard to fake and it is one of strong indications of authenticity. I guess we can not rely on it anymore with more advanced labs :(

Arash

Offline Din X

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Re: Suspicious Karystos didrachm
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2018, 03:25:37 am »
One of their problem is the die axis, but on them is almost everything wrong!
Artificial crystallisation is not a problem but the fakes of these dies I have seen were not crystallized
Completely wrong die axis, style, planchet shape, that 2 oberse and 2 reverse die exist which are not die linked to authentic specimens, that they were not known before 1930er years, that they are published fakes in bulletin on counterfeits, the artificial dirt+toning all this makes them without a doubt authentic !!!!

I do of course think that the bulletin of counterfeits enties of them must be deleted because they are authentic, several of these have been sold by auction houses so they must be authetnic.
 

https://harvardmagazine.com/2004/09/wrong.html

The first coin is genuine, the other two fake. (Obverse and reverse are shown for each.) All three are from the important collection of ancient Greek coins at the Sackler Museum formed by the late Arthur S. Dewing '02, Ph.D. '05, a professor of finance at the Harvard Business School. Dewing bought the fakes from shops in Athens in 1937 and 1954.

The catalog of the Dewing Collection published in 1985 did not include the second forged coin because the editors, Silvia Hurter and the late Leo Mildenberg, and Alan S. Walker, the author of the section on this part of the Greek world, thought it undoubtedly false. The catalog did include as genuine the first forged coin, but curator of numismatic collections Carmen Arnold-Biucchi would call it fake simply because it is so similar to the undoubted fake in its style and in its "fabric," its general appearance as a piece of metal. Research by Hurter, published in the Bulletin on Counterfeits in 1987, associates it with a group of fake two-drachma coins of Karystos probably made in the 1930s. "These counterfeits are struck [as the genuine is, and as opposed to cast]...and they often have an artificially crystallized surface. Apparently two obverse and two reverse dies were used."

Ancient mint workers fixed a die engraved with the design for the obverse (here a cow suckling a calf) in an anvil, put a warmed silver blank on top of it, placed on top of that a die for the reverse design, and whacked the top die with a hammer. At most mints the worker held the reverse die in his hand and made no attempt to orient the reverse design with the obverse in any particular way. At some mints, however, the ancients fixed the reverse die in position so that its image was tidily at 12 o'clock in relation to the obverse, or at 6 o'clock (as is the case with U.S. coins today). Mildenberg demonstrated in Nomismatika Chronika in 1989 that the mint of ancient Karystos used fixed dies, with the reverse at 12 o'clock. Of our faker, he wrote: "This cunning craftsman, whenever and wherever he worked, struck from loose dies." His roosters are positioned randomly—perhaps at 2 o'clock, perhaps at 8 o'clock—a mistake, and this by itself gives them away.

Offline arash p

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Re: Suspicious Karystos didrachm
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2018, 07:54:03 am »
Wow How did they make artificial crystallization in 1930s?? That time I doubt there were any sophisticated labs to be able to do this.


Offline Din X

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Re: Suspicious Karystos didrachm
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2018, 11:14:56 am »
Wow How did they make artificial crystallization in 1930s?? That time I doubt there were any sophisticated labs to be able to do this.




How do you know this?   ???


You do not know how to create artificial crystallation but you do know that you do need to produce crystallation a laboratory, ain´t it funny ?

Maybe creating artificial crystallations can be done easily without special equipment and the knowledge was there already prior to 1930  ;D

Offline JBF

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Re: Suspicious Karystos didrachm
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2018, 02:20:29 pm »
How "much" does an ancient coin collector/scholar have to "worry" about artificial crystallization?  I agree with arash p, that crystallization generally is interpreted as a sign of authenticity.  Is this a mistake?  Or is it still a good rule of thumb for the average collector (with a caveat that artificial crystallization does exist?)?

Offline Din X

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Re: Suspicious Karystos didrachm
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2018, 03:32:32 pm »
There is a very obvious crystallized cast fake at calagrycoins but  broken link but pictures are still accessable through google search (picture 1-3)

http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/examples/fakeamphipolis01.htm

There is already a crystallized fake of Paros  in fake reports (picture 4)

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-17798

And I heared and I think I have already seen old crystallized  fakes but I do not have pictures of them :(

Even Medieval coins can be crystallized so several hundred years are enough with NORMAL TEMPERATURE.
But as you know that the speed of chemical reactions is related to temperature you can guess that you can create the same crystallisation artificially if you use very high temperature .
You do of course need very pure silver about 95 % and some chemicals.







Offline Din X

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Re: Suspicious Karystos didrachm
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2018, 11:14:16 am »
Meanwhile the coin was withdrawn from auction together with a die match at vcoins.

The wrong die axis of this fakes makes the condemnation bullet proof.

"Mildenberg demonstrated in Nomismatika Chronika in 1989 that the mint of ancient Karystos used fixed dies, with the reverse at 12 o'clock"


I think that most here have not read so far the article in harvard magazine where this fakes are mentioned so I want to post the pictures of the 2 harvard fakes here to because you can see the wrong die axis on the pictures. Picture shows the die axis, which should be 12 o´ clock on authentic examples.


Picture 1 withdrawn at auction
Picture 2 withdrawn at vcoins (offered at auction before)
Picture 3+4 harvard fakes

I have not seen any of these fakes with "crystallized surface" as written in bulletin on counterfeits, imho this information is wrong !



 

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