Caracalla with urns?

[Marjan E]

Hello all   I recently purchased these two coins which were called Caracalla with vases.  I have been looking on Wildwinds for a match for them, but have come up empty handed.  Either they were called something else in the description, or I simply missed the reference on my way through.

The greatest thing was the tour through the Caracalla coins!  I never realized there were so many different reverses for him.  WOW!

Any help you can give me with identifying these would be appreciated.  I have been looking for the tell tale antoninus on the the obverse, but I don't have the coins in hand yet and my eyes are not practiced enough to say what the lettering signifies.

Thanks,

Marjan

[archivum]

I think they're both Niicaea, Bithynia; see

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/caracalla/_nicaea_AE16_RecGen_489.jpg

[basemetal]

Hi!
I took a vow never again to interfere with the ID of coins on the ID section (like many others, I'm a newbie and will be for many years to come).
Due to wear and other factors,  N tends to look like H and O tends  to look like A and more often P
on worn coins. 
Take heart.  I once solemnly presented a coin for ID with what I, from the vast pool of knowledge I had/have, helped out with the spot on ID of an ONNA on the left of a coin, and it was discretely pointed out to me that perhaps it might just possibly be ANNO and perhaps stamp collecting might actually be my true calling.
Hang in there, it will come with time and study.
Bruce
Basemetal

[whitetd49]

Oh please!  90% of being learned is knowing when to shut up.  Take pains to be correct the other 10% of the time!

[Marjan E]

Haha, Ok Many thanks Archivum.  That looks spot on!  I have explored that site before, but due to my lack of German, I felt quite handicapped.

*Grins  Basemetal you give me hope.  Everyday I learn something new, and the generous help of the experts here has been invaluable.  Thanks for the tips on the letters.  I have noticed that an N can look like an H.  I guess I just haven't seen enought coins to be able to suss out the letters properly.  (but I plan to keep trying!)

Thanks again guys,

Marjan

[archivum]

Often if you just try some alternative descriptions (in this case Caracalla and amphora), you'll ultimately find what you need. Size and weight can also help the search, whether there or when you ask this board. Your first coin is radiate with legends ANTWNEINOC AVGV (?) / NIKAIEWN, and the second laureate with legends ANTWNEINOC AVG /  NIKAIEWN, meaning you have two similar issues with a coinarchives match for the second.

[Marjan E]

Thanks again Archivum,

That is very helpful, I was trying to think of the word for vase in Latin but had a brain closure.

Marjan

[curtislclay]

First radiate, second bare-headed?  Both portraits look laureate to me.

[archivum]

Yes, I see what you mean about laureate, but aren't those also rays after T, N, and I on the left-hand example?

[curtislclay]

Those three, and a fourth one after the omega, indeed rather look like rays.

However rays combined with a laurel wreath would be a new portrait type, I think; something that I am not inclined to believe in on the basis of one small bronze coin!

[Marjan E]

Thank you Curtis  
I have read all this with great interest.  I am learning more each day, but with each new piece of learning, I realize how much more I /don't/ know.  My journey through the Caracalla coins on Wildwinds has really intrigued me with this ruler.  I don't think I have seen such a variety yet with any other emperor.

Pax vobiscum

Marjan

[archivum]

 
Curtis, I would agree that a radiate laureate is pretty bizarre, but now that you mention it I believe that there are a few other Nicaean examples --

[DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
[DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] ; for reverse see Recueil General under Severus, RG 443, 358)
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/caracalla/_nicaea_AE16_RecGen_489.jpg (less clear [= RG 460, 489])

I have one around somewhere as well if you'd like me to rummage.

[areich]

I have one like that, too. Urn from Nikaea, laureate and those spikes.

[Marjan E]

Wow!  Thanks Archivum and also to you Areich
I thought I had gone through wildwinds pretty carefully, but I missed that second coin.  I remember seeing the first one though

Marjan

[slokind]

This is curiosity, NOT learned opinion, but:
(a) Are all of them agonistic?  Any Games to which relevant?
(b) Are we to think of real radiance around a laureate head?
(c) Are all of them Caracalla, or are some Elagabalus?
Pat L.

[Marjan E]

Hello Pat

Can you please explain your reference to agonistic?  I haven't heard that word before.  When you mention games, does that mean that the amphorae may represent an award for excellence in athletic games?

Thanks

Marjan

[archivum]

The Isegrim entries for rt: amphora po: nicaea make it pretty clear that the amphora with palms is a standard for games in Nikaia (Komodeia, Severeia, and Hieros Agwn).  No one seems to associate Nikaia's amphora or urn types with Elagabalus, and I'd say that apart from the rays, Marjan's portraits are so close to identical that both really must be Caracalla.

[Marjan E]

Thanks Pat,

Very interesting.  I will have to do some research on this subject.

Marjan

[curtislclay]

From the age of Caracalla, these coins could well belong to the series celebrating the Great Severan Games of Brotherly Love at Nicaea, about which I wrote under Provincial Coins, 15 April 2007, now on p. 4 of that board.

With the support of the additional specimens, the rays combined with laurel wreath do seem to be a fact, and one that has perhaps not been recognized before.  The rays must be a divine attribute, perhaps appropriate for Caracalla as the new young Augustus.  It is curious that they do not seem to have been added to any of his larger portraits, however.

[Marjan E]

Thanks Curtis I'll check that out as soon as I return from giving my lecture.

Marjan

[archivum]

Here's the link to the Games note that Curtis just mentioned:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=36795.0

For the Games-linked small bronzes obverse and and reverse now see also these interesting variants:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=38098.msg241480#msg241480

[archivum]

Isegrim may allude to this radiate-laureate obverse type just once, for Severus Alexander:

PRO: BITHYNIA
PO : NICAEA
PZ : Between 222 and 235  
 Obverse
VSG: M AYR S ALEXANDROS AYG
VT : PORTRAIT MAN R / SEV. ALEXANDER
VA : WREATH LAUREL <RADIATE>
 Reverse
RSG: NIKAIEWN
RT : MAN SITTING L(1) / ZEUS(1) / ON / STOOL
RA : PATERA(1) / STAFF(1)
 Technical details
M  : AE
GR : 18(1-2)
 Bibliographical references
ZIT: WADD RG S472,582(1-2)  [obverse unfortunately not pictured] / COLL PARIS(1)
VGL: HANDEL(2)
 Additional remarks
FR : VS: M AYR S ALEXANDROS AYG RS: NIKAIEWN

There's another unusually clear Caracalla example on Forum:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-1878

For another example with a different reverse see

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=45188.msg287748#msg287748

Here's a particularly sharp radiate-laureate Caracalla, AE17, 2.08g, unless this actually pictures a simpler tied-on radiate crown, though the front of the band here does seem to be shaped like a laurel-leaf.