Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers => Topic started by: Ghengis_Jon on May 05, 2009, 07:34:18 amFake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers => Topic started by: Ghengis_Jon on May 05, 2009, 07:34:18 amThe seller acknowledged the tooling on this one, earning him honesty points.`
I also have one "beautiful" example of tooling...
I also have one "beautiful" example of tooling...
Could those be two nearly identical cast fakes?
seems like a cracked die?Agree with you. Cracked and repaired. This scratch can be welding seam at die, curl engraved after repairing.
Another hair style makeover...
aaaagggghhhhh!
WHY? For the love of god do idiots continue on doing this?
Geez Danny, are you fishing for a job at Sadigh Galleries or something? ;D
27mm, 14.9 grams, a most interesting reverse.
Hadrian sestertius, obverse tooled and smoothed.First, please let me make it clear that I don't approve of tooling in any way, and I weep for the coin and associated history that will have been destroyed by the toolers actions. However this one is certainly more sympathetically tooled than most I have seen. I would go as far as to say that whoever tooled this actually has quite a nice touch!
...I would go as far as to say that whoever tooled this actually has quite a nice touch!
regards
Mark
How about and URBS ROMA medallion...
Martin
Nerva - described by seller as tooled.
I founded this thread because I came across some particularly bad tooling jobs. It has since morphed into a thread encompassing all manner of tooling - the good, the bad, and the ugly. (I fall into the camp that there's never 'good' tooling.)Just to clarify my position following my post earlier, especially after Andrew quoted me for a reason that I must admit I missed. (sorry Andrew, I am obviously being slow tonight)
Interesting examples Aarmale. Can an expert tell me if the busts of those Nervas have been tooled, to me it looks like it's only the reverses have been tampered with?
I don't think that the second coin is from the same rev. die, however.
Maybe this one should be referred to as 'trenching' instead of 'tooling'.
This one makes me shudder.
Here's a sestertius of Claudius that's listed with an opening bid of $799.99!
Is it fake or tooled? That brings up the question of whether or not tooled coins should be grouped in with fakes. There is deception in both, but definitely not the same.
Sometimes tooling isn't so bad.
I've never seen a quadriga of donkeys before!
Thought I should add this one here as well as the Fake Reports.
Sold on eBay and listed by the seller as "smoothed." It's also heavily tooled.
mz
This is the pic :).
This is the pic :).
This is the pic :).
No tooling or smoothing on that denarius, in my opinion.
A completely tooled entry...
The Nero denarius isn't tooled but is made from modern dies. I believe that it is a Lipanoff. I know that the I recognise the reverse die as being a Lipanoff product. I need to look for the obverse. Here is an example from the fake reports:-
This one is from an auction house that used to be reputable and is now the bottom of the barrel.
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53363.0;attach=144257;image)
They know, it is their business model. They will sell everything and add a provenance for a fee.
The hair and the drapery showing through Concordias legs seem tooled, they don't look like that on any of the examples I compared with. The seller is known for some cases of repaired gold coins a while back, just FYI.
The seller is known for some cases of repaired gold coins a while back, just FYI.
When is a heavily tooled coin no longer worth anything?
Is there a line that someone can cross from tooling to creating?
This is a very badly/dangerously tooled coin. Bad in the sense of dangerous for numismatic study. The tooling has created a mint control that does not exist in the emissions of the Baktrian Uncertain Mint C and if accepted blindly this would confuse, if not rewrite the history of Euthydemid mint operations in Baktria.
This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics. To their credit CNG has identified quite explicitly in the description the tooling problem and the monogram issue:
BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Euthydemos I. Circa 225-200 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 16.14 g, 6h). Uncertain Mint C. Struck circa 215-210 BC. Diademed head right / Herakles seated left on rock, holding club set on rocks beside his knee; monogram to outer right. Kritt C2; Bopearachchi Série 4A; SNG ANS 122. Good VF, some porosity, smoothing and tooling, with the monogram being incorrectly re-engraved.
NOT exactly twice the price ,but almost. Taking into consideration the hammer price and buyersThis is a very badly/dangerously tooled coin. Bad in the sense of dangerous for numismatic study. The tooling has created a mint control that does not exist in the emissions of the Baktrian Uncertain Mint C and if accepted blindly this would confuse, if not rewrite the history of Euthydemid mint operations in Baktria.
This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics. To their credit CNG has identified quite explicitly in the description the tooling problem and the monogram issue:
BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Euthydemos I. Circa 225-200 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 16.14 g, 6h). Uncertain Mint C. Struck circa 215-210 BC. Diademed head right / Herakles seated left on rock, holding club set on rocks beside his knee; monogram to outer right. Kritt C2; Bopearachchi Série 4A; SNG ANS 122. Good VF, some porosity, smoothing and tooling, with the monogram being incorrectly re-engraved.
This one is now for sale on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] at twice the price without reference to the tooling and completely incorrect monogram that results from the tooling.... see the potential to re-write history and/or screw numismatic research through the incomplete disclosure and actions of less than scrupulous reputable dealers?
As I said originally This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.
It saddens me that some dealers play to this sort of deception.
Shave and a haircut - 2 bits!
Hair and wings are tooled, right?
The hammer price for the Janusform Sextus Pompey was €222 ($315 US). Here's the reverse:
A well tended coif...
i'm always curious as to why these coins were so butchered. ???
i mean, what did the fifth test cut reveal that the other four hadn't already?
The placement of each cut is specific to the administrative body concerned according to this theory.
But why did these authorities mark the coins according to this theory?
That makes perfect sense in regards to countermarks. But anyone with a flat piece of bronze and a rock could 'legitimize' coinage in their possesion. Perhaps it worked in the opposite direction - cut coins were deemed of lesser purity?
I'd have to spend time I don't have to track down the reference or references, but I recall reading that Owls found outside of Greece, in the East, in lands at the time that were part of the Achaemenid Persian empire, are found much more often test cut than those found in Greece. But only a tiny fraction of Owls hoards like other hoards are documented, so the evidence I suspect is fairly sparse.
Don't you just love the finely tooled detail of the mane on the lion skin headdress of Herakles.....
Accompanied by this wonderful eye popping description... VF with nice toning. Some hatching on the obverse which could be an inscription. A scarce and desirable lifetime issue from the popular Egyptian mint.
Don't you just love the finely tooled detail of the mane on the lion skin headdress of Herakles.....
Accompanied by this wonderful eye popping description... VF with nice toning. Some hatching on the obverse which could be an inscription. A scarce and desirable lifetime issue from the popular Egyptian mint.
Looks like someone missed their mark trying to tool the chin too!
Could one make a fake coin look more authentic by tooling it, and then by saying that the coin was tooled when selling it so stylistic irregularities on the coin would not arouse suspicion? :police:
I'm pretty sure we've discussed this coin in the past and had decided that it was a total fake as opposed to retooled.
Yes, the bust type with lion's scalp is known (though not on antoniniani) but stylewise this one is off. I am surprised the tooling had not been noted before.
Lars
.... but stylewise this one is off. I am surprised the tooling had not been noted before.
I'm pretty sure we've discussed this coin in the past and had decided that it was a total fake as opposed to retooled.
To my eye coin does not appear to be tooled (but I am far from expert in this type of coin). However, I would not be surprised to learn that tooling fakes is but one tactic used by the fraudster to divert attention from the fake nature of the coin. Similarly the pretense that a coin is tooled could be also used to divert attention from the fake nature of a coin. People focus on the tooling, rather than the authenticity of the host and many believe (mistakenly) that any tooled coin must be authentic, based on the naive assumption that no-one would tool a fake, which is off course completely illogical reasoning. A faker will do anything and adopt any tactic to move his wares.
Then the second is possibly a tooled fake. It wouldn't be the first, let alone only one, by any stretch of the imagination.
From e*ay. What's your opinion?It looks tooled and smoothed. Really bad.
For tooled coins, Forum normally does not include a grade, except TOOLED. We avoid selling tooled coins but if we are stuck with one and the other alternative is throwing it in the garbage, we usually put it on eBay.
To save time:
http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewsale&sid=500&cid=19571&s=b
a high percentage of the Greek bronzes are tooled.
This week's tooled entry:
Maybe the source for the Lanz auction is the same that Peus had:
http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewsale&sid=476&cid=18606&pg=2&search=&s=b
Just out of interest, and I know that we are not strictly speaking discussing fakes, but why hasn't he been nominated for the NFSL yet? Surely anything this badly tooled has got to qualify them?
regards
Mark
Like with so many other dealers it is an inherited reputation that is eroding quickly. Grades are exaggerated and manipulation played down, first on Ebay, later in the proper auctions. On Ebay it is perfectly normal to find coins there described as 'lightly smoothed' that are heavily tooled and that is intentional. Of course it would open a can of worms to nominate sellers like this for the NFSL. The best solution is to stay informed, keep your eyes open and don't blindly trust in a seller's 'reputation' or knowledge. More than a few relatively well-known internet-based sellers e.g. just copy coin descriptions and reference numbers from the web, like most new collectors do.
It has been said that they come from Italy and noted how close they are in style to aitnacoins' Ebay offers. I haven't studied them closely enough to be sure, because to be honest, it would be a very unpleasant task to do so.
Unfortunately, even though some of the other big firms note tooling whenever they notice it, the fact that these tooled coins are sold at all, sometimes in large numbers, may make them more acceptable to collectors and thus lead to more tooled coins. I don't know what kind of collector these people are that see a tooled coin, no incredible rarity that would not be available untooled, and bid anyway, often hundreds or thousands of dollars.
The dealer has a many-decade-long positive reputation and is an expert and respected numismatist who is known for selling good quality always-genuine coins and to reacting immediately and positively to any issue with a purchaser. It appears he is now selling a group of genuine but tooled coins. I think this is crazy but not malevolent. In the related ebay sales he has generally described the coins as tooled. There is also a grey area of coins which seem to be lightly tooled but not marked as such, and it appears the other dealer mentioned on this thread is selling similar pieces. Remember the criterion for NFSL is that there be unquestionable and deliberate deception.
Just plain fugly...
Just plain fugly...
Yes. I'm guessing this is a Lanz tooling. They seem to process them through a mince-meat machine, producing a recognizably fugly style. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fugly
I just wonder who buys this crap? Yet another of life's mysteries!
There must be demand, because the garbage keeps on coming, but who and where are the buyers who must exist in significant numbers to support the machine that churns out these tooled monstrosities? Imagine what the rest of their life must be like if they think this garbage is good stuff! I know it sounds arrogant (and feel free to call me such), but my mind boggles at the thought of such indiscriminate taste and and an intellect that believes this stuff is in any sense authentic.
Condition described as Very Fine, tooled..... which is I guess better than describing it as very finely tooled!
I have no idea what this is supposed to be. It does not resemble any real coin type.
I have no idea what this is supposed to be. It does not resemble any real coin type.
This one is particularly terrible. Those faces are awful.
I have no idea what this is supposed to be. It does not resemble any real coin type.
This tells me that
(a) ignorant collectors are being dreadfully deceived when they bid for these objects.
Described as "lightly tooled". Yuck.I think it was "lightly tooled"......with a pneumatic road drill! ;D
Described as "lightly tooled". Yuck.
I think that a change in vocabulary is in order. These coins should be named 'modern fake' in stead of ´tooled´. Only the flans are authentic. How is this, method aside, any different than slugs overstruck with modern forged dies?
I suppose the coin was rather nice before he laid his tools on it.
A fearsome foursome for all to enjoy:
This one is offered as "tooled, smoothed and repatinated" and is currently north of $400. :-\
speechless
Tooling can often produce 'one of a kind' type of coins.
Tetras, 357 - 339, Überprägung einer Bronze-Litra Dionysios' I. (vgl. Calciati II S. 86 N 41). S-ILEPAIW-N(retrograd). Androkephaler Stier nach rechts. Rs: Nackter Krieger mit Schild und Speer nach rechts stürmend, im Feld SIL-A. Campana, CNAI "; Calciati III S. 301 Em. 2/9. 6,86g. Fast vorzüglich/sehr schön.
This one is impressive. Looks like it was being cleaned with a pick axe and the 'cleaner' decided to add a little detail.
It does have a modern look, to me anyway.
Nick
Hi All!
Just stumbled across this one on *bay.
The obverse hair, at least, seems to be tooled, right?
Seller, who is in Budapest, "guaranteed to the original."
mz
I can see no tooling, it's just the lighting from the bottom. If you turn the picture upside down the reverse doesn't look incuse anymore.
Stefan
As one who appreciates critter coins, this one makes me weep.
Andrew - How about this one? The obverse looks fine to me, but look at the owl's beak (and maybe the eyes). To me, they might have been worked over. Can't be sure though. I wouldn't/couldn't condemn the coin without looking at those features under magnification. I like the coin, but it comes from my favorite Tool & Die shop.
...if it were offered by our host here, I'd have no hestitation.
I see a doublestruck nose and flat-struck hair on this one, and deposits removed from the whole surface, but no tooling!
This one is comical.
I agree with your observations on the reverse, which is why I did not post an image.
Not a coin but a jaw dropping restoration attempt...
Not a coin but a jaw dropping restoration attempt...
Could have been worse......
I generally collect Greek coins, so I don't have much experience in sestertii, however, it appears that he tooling and smoothing on the above two coins does not appear to chilled the bidding much.
I know we don't talk prices here, but by what percentage do you think the price of a coin that has been lightly tooled, smoothed and filled, like the Agrippina above generally be affected by such treatment? This one appears to be well done. Would it sell for more than a cleaned but untouched coin that is worn and pitted?
And if so, is that what's leading to so many coins being tooled, smoothed and/or filled?
It also appears that smoothing is generally accepted now as part of the "restoration/conservation process" Yes? No?
Is tooling getting to the point where it is acceptable?
What about filling, like the second coin? It seems to me that taking a pitted coin and filling it with whaterever people fill these with, goes above and beyond what should be acceptable?
How easy is it to detect filling if it's not disclosed?
The current auction house is disclosing, but I always wonder whether the person who sells the coin next will disclose.
Quaintly described as "Good Fine, details strengthened". This leads me to ask as to when does "strengthening" become tooling?
Andrew,
I agree with Andreas: the two words are not equivalent.
"Tooling" includes completely inventing and adding letters and details that were never there.
"Strengthening" means removing metal from around genuine details of the type, in order to make them sharper and clearer.
"Strengthening" restricts itself to genuine details of the type; "tooling" does not.
Andrew,
I agree with Andreas: the two words are not equivalent.
"Tooling" includes completely inventing and adding letters and details that were never there.
"Strengthening" means removing metal from around genuine details of the type, in order to make them sharper and clearer.
"Strengthening" restricts itself to genuine details of the type; "tooling" does not.
Beg to disagree. In your second acception strengthening is the same as tooling. Question of semantics. The word tooling has become a bad word in numismatics.
Something like calling a prostitute an hetaera.
Andrew,
Yes, "all semantics", but isn't it still important to preserve clear distinctions in the meanings of words?
I continue to maintain that, for example, a coin with the emperor's hair and beard reengraved on the obverse, and the deity's clothing on the reverse, and letters of the legend tooled in that were originally entirely missing, is correctly described as "tooled", but not as either "strengthened" or "a forgery".
I think there's a difference between strengthening and tooling. 'Strengthened' may be used if only the contours are sharpened but nothing really altered. It's not fundamentally different from tooling but there is a difference in intensity. Of course often it is used as a eupehmism to pretend total honesty while at the same time trying to limit the damage.
I dislike to use of the word "strengthened" over tooled. "Strengthened" seems to imply that tooling is a positive act.
You're right, it's definitely a euphemism, chosen to make willful damage sound good!
..... Of course often it is used as a eupehmism to pretend total honesty while at the same time trying to limit the damage.
I totally agree on the need to have clear definitions, and if possible to distinguish between different words that apply to different levels of intervention.
Forgery. Tooled. Strengthened. Smoothed. Polished. Details improved. Details enhanced with a tool. Over-cleaned. Sharpened. Heavily cleaned. Whatever.
Who is to be the guardian of these definitions?
I equate tooled=strengthened and call any deliberate change to a design as forgery but my view on these words is as subjective as the next. Others distinguish between the words. Sometimes smoothed just means smoothed, and sometimes it means also with some tooling or strengthening (as you will) at the edges". Sometimes, regardless of definitions, a seller may use "smoothed" to mean heavily tooled and then wash his hands by claiming he pointed out the intervention. It's all so confusing.
Who are National Numismatic Certification anyways?
When you already know the answer to a question, why pose it to the board?
When you already know the answer to a question, why pose it to the board?
I think the point was that no one can really tell from an image whether a tool is definitely tooled or not. Maybe he works for NGC?
Up the usual standards of our well known IAPN accredited central European dealer. He is very consistent.
Up the usual standards of our well known IAPN accredited central European dealer. He is very consistent.
Wow, that's hideous!
I also have one "beautiful" example of tooling...
Could those be two nearly identical cast fakes?
Yes, i was puzzled with this coin too. This part of scratch looks really strange. But a wear looks good, and exist and another examples from this obv. die at close condition, which seems undoubtly struck.
So, i think it's mostly crazy tooling, not forgery. IMHO.
Lucania, Metapontion
Weight: 3.3 g.
Diameter: 12 mm.
From the next auction catalogue of a well known german dealer.
Yet another ancient coin to burn, victim of an obtuse, anachronistic and disturbing "principle of novelty" that appears to have spread inexorably the German market of ancient coins.
The authors of this nonsense should be charged with vandalism.
I had a look to the ebay store of the German seller.
It is no longer a numismatic shop, it's an Horror-Theatre!
Hi folks,
This thread is scaring me. In looking at pages 20 and 21, I recognize only 30-40% of these coins as being tooled and/or fakes. About 60-70% of these coins would have fooled me. In the post that Taras made at the end of page 20 (with the 9 photos), I recognized only one (the Gela one) as being tooled/fake. The other 8 would have fooled me. The coin in the photo in Nick's post at the beginning of page 21 also would have fooled me, as would the "fake patina" RR coin in Andrew's post on page 20.
And I've been collecting ancient coins (especially Magna Graecia) since 1998. Am I not seeing something?
Meepzorp
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.
A coin of Diodotos II of Baktria bearing the posthumous image of his father Diodotos I. Heavily tooled, but the obverse portrait style is distinctve of the issues that constitute Holt's Group B1-B3 all bearing the idealised posthumous image of Diodotos I.
So far so good, tooling aside.
However, turn to the reverse and we find a crudely approximated mint control (the pitchfork symbol) that never occurrred on the coinage in the name of Diodotos. Its only to be found (in much more refined form with some additional detail missing from the tooled item) on the much earlier coinage in the name of Antiochos issued by Diodotos I at the time he was nominally the Seleucid Satrap of Baktria. The only controls on the coins bearing the posthumous portrait of Diodotos I (Holt Groups B1-B1) are a wreath, or a crescent or none at all.
Some poor sod will potentially buy this piece of maliciously tooled junk and believe he has a unique and unrecorded coin!
In cases like this I wonder where tooling ends and forgery begins.
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.
Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!
I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...
I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...
I agree with this sentiment. If a coin is described as tooled and is offered at a low price, you know exactly what you are bidding on. I've no problems with that, even if the tooling resulted in inadvertent changes - tooling by definition always causes changes to the coins design; when disclosed and priced, its no different from when a reputable dealer offers Cavinos or group lots of black cabinet reproductions.
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record......&
In cases like this I wonder where tooling ends and forgery begins.
Certainly its a blurred line. Call it what we will, tooling or forgery, the potentially adverse consequence of this sort of activity on the understanding and interpretation of the numismatic record is profound.
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.
Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!
I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.
Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!
I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...
What has the offered price got to do with the consideration of a Badly Tooled Coin posted under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?
It is badly tooled and misattributed regardless of the price! Thus it warrants posting here. No big deal was made by me of the matter. Rather it was posted with the facts about it, as just another example of bad tooling (tongue in cheek I ask is there ever good tooling?) which constitutes little more than Numismatic Vandalism.
Are you suggesting that we should only consider tooled coins that are offered at a high price under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?
As far as I am concerned if someone reading this thread is made aware of the matter and the problems with this specific coin and then declines to bid on it because he/she understands what it really is, then all the better for it. Only when people stop buying tooled crap with tooling cease.
I said in the decription by the auction house the tooling is mentioned. This defect is catered by the small price. I am not defending the auction house, they have an obvious slavey fake I already posted, and molinari posted another bronze italian fake. And I suspect other ones as well. As I said it is obvious these 200 coins are coming from the collection of sb that passed and possibly bought these are authentics, and the auction house put everything on auction.
I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it.
So where is the "big deal" in posting this badly tooled coin with an explanation of what is wrong with it?
And another one
And another one
I don't see where this one is tooled.
The last two...I just don't see the tooling. I suppose I would see it if it was side-by-side with another coin from the same dies, but it isn't jumping out at me. Maybe with the less obvious coins you can post untooled coins to compare?
I agree that the Carthage Stater is probably tooled, whereas from the picture I am undecided about the Chalkis coin. Its hairlines do look like what you would expect from tooling but then again, they also do not stand out as completely unnatural for this issue either.
Lars
The apparently tooled Tanit appears to be debased gold (electrum?) and the comparison coin appears to be of good gold. That makes it difficult to compare them. Near 24k gold certainly would not hold up those finer details with any wear. I believe that the French dealer is quite accurate in attribution, grading, authentication and descriptions. Nobody is perfect but they generally impress me which is primarily why I am still not entirely convinced it is tooled.
The Chalkis comparison coin is flatly struck with slightly worn dies. That makes it difficult to compare them. The sharpness of the detail on the apparently tooled coin does seem impossible and probably is impossible, but I am still not entirely sure.
Sold previously as "smoothed". Surprisingly, the current seller does not have it described that way. I wrote to them and recommended they list it as tooled, because it is. Specifically, the face of the man-faced bull and the warrior's face on the reverse.
Can anybody be sure with coins like this one here, whether it is even genuine?
This must be tooled, right?...
This must be tooled, right?...
Yes.
I don't see any tooling on this second coin (Alexandrian drachm).I agree, I see no tooling either on the Alexandria drachm. An attractive coin actually, I would not mind having in my collection.
Quote from: curtislclay link=topic=53363.msg634176#msg634176 date= the 1438816307I don't see any tooling on this second coin (Alexandrian drachm).I agree, I see no tooling either on the Alexandria drachm.
It is tooled. But it might also be a cast fake that has been tooled.hello Areich,
What do you all think, tooled or not tooled and your overall opinion of the coin.
I had this originally posted trying to find out if it was a sestertius or dupondius. I received my answer on that- sestertius.
Thanks in advance!
Tim
Is it inappropriate to ask if tooling is becoming more acceptable in some places than others? When I see badly tooled coins they seem to be more often from certain countries. My eyes are offended by this sort of thing but the number of examples we see suggests it does not bother everyone.
I think that you noted the key issue Lee. Transparency and honesty.
People want to buy a tooled coin, fine. A re-patinated one, fine. If all were labelled honestly as such then it would be fine from a consumer's point of view. Buy what you want, use your own judgement re price variation.
That said, Andrew's question is interesting. Let's say that there are two Andrew McCabe's in parallel universes. Andrew alpha lists everything he thinks might have been done to a coin - tooling, smoothing, over-cleaning, re-patination, etc. Andrew beta simply lists the coins. What is the difference in prices realized?
Shawn
Is it just me or is this tooled, particularly the reverse (look at those rowers)? The description mentions only 'a few cleaning marks'.
Richard
older topic
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=116604.0
Certainly smoothed but what parts are tooled? The reverse drapery?For me its tooled because there is original metal removed, maybe the reverse drapery is tooled as well
Walter,
Yes, obv. legend remade, but I think the original may have been Otacilia Severa rather than Salonina.
Did he use a screw driver to re-engrave it?
Etwas überarbeitet und geglättet, fast vorzüglich.
Slightly revised and smoothed, almost exquisite.
Is that coin real at all? Certainly not a square milimeter of original surface survives. It looks as if it could be an entirely new product, sculpted out of a block of bronze.i agree, this could well be
hi all,Hammered £
in Auction, auctioneer calls himself Fine Arts
I find that and these coins truly disgusting.Yes and people spending so much money for trash, smoothed is ok for me to some degree, but hardcore tooling?
...tooled with dremel - from the same auction...
I would not call the other two coins tooled either. I would call would call them ruined by botched cleaning attempts.Well, you're certainly right, but... Dremeling the whole field of a coin and removing many details in a cleaning process... If it's not tooling...