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Author Topic: Venus Victrix  (Read 15493 times)

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Offline whitetd49

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Re: Venus Victrix
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2005, 11:42:58 am »
Here's a better look at the type.  This one is a bit out of my price range.
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Offline *Alex

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Re: Venus Victrix
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2005, 12:53:03 pm »
Here is Venus Victrix in a completely different pose on an antoninianus of Caracalla.

Alex.


Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Venus Victrix
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2005, 03:07:06 pm »
Isn't that largely the difference between a front view and a back?
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Offline slokind

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Re: Venus Victrix
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2005, 04:00:15 pm »
No, it's quite a different type, either an alternative image in a different shrine or a nondescript image with the Victrix legend put on it.  See my note further up in this thread, dated July 1, 2004.  This is not simply a 'feeling' of mine.  I had 14 members of a seminar on Greek and Roman coins work on types and legends for a month, learning in the process to make data bases (which latter some learned better than others).  For my part, I worked boiling down my post of July 1 for an hour or so to make sure it was worth careful reading.  I don't always write so carefully here: only when it is really important.  Patricia Lawrence

Offline whitetd49

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Re: Venus Victrix
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2005, 08:05:27 pm »
Here is an example with Venus depicted in her more traditional aspect, holding an apple and a scepter.  There seems to be a large array of Faustina II Venus issues with different reverses.  This is RIC 728, Cohen 249 (36 specimens in the Reka Devnia hoard).  Just won this coin on Forum Auctions!
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Offline slokind

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Re: Venus Victrix
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2005, 11:15:37 pm »
Ah, thanks for posting one of those.  Sabina has a beautiful sestertius with her and a denarius (I'm not with RIC at the moment, but I guess maybe an aureus too).  That is the one that we THINK on the strength of Sabina's is the Venus type used for Venus Genetrix in the Temple in the Forum of Caesar.  Faustina's is just called Venus, tout court.  Domna, of course, has these, too, at Alexandria as well as Rome.  And, of course, this is the type I alluded to when I said that the last Venus, that of Galeria Valeria on her folles, is this type, the one with the apple and holding up her overgarment flirtatiously, which is actually labeled Veneri Victrici there: they do not seem to have had the famous image in mind, only the idea of Venus as Victorious.  There are figurines in terracotta (Myrina), statuettes in marble, and many, many full-size copies in marble.  She was very, very famous, and not only as in Rome for the Genetrix.  The true Rome Victrix, half draped and leaning on her column (and apparently originally with a helmet rather than a fruit-like lump on her hand) seems never to have been copied, only quoted on coins.  If shown in front view her breast may be thinly covered; if a Cupid is at her feet he may hold the helmet.  Patricia Lawrence

Offline slokind

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Re: Venus Victrix
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2005, 03:06:17 am »
And since, finally, I just managed to get a Kyzikos Galeria Valeria follis of my own, here is that last (not very voluptuous!) thin-clad Venus with the Apple, the one that for Sabina is labeled Genetrix, here labeled Victrix, as described in the last post.  This is one LRB that I am fond of.  But she is not the same type as the Victrix in the shrine at the Theater of Pompey.
Pat Lawrence

Offline *Alex

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Re: Venus Victrix
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2005, 07:40:59 am »
Pat,
The Venus which I posted on the Caracalla Antoninianus above seems to have all the attributes of Venus Victrix, she is leaning on a shield with a helmet to right at her feet, and, of course, she is holding Victory as well as a spear. Could this, perhaps, be a copy of the true Venus Victrix?

Alex.

Offline slokind

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Re: Venus Victrix
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2005, 02:41:17 pm »
I was wondering how to say it for the last two days.  It is our wretched inexact vocabulary.  The one on your antoninianus is (a) not independent of the Victrix statuary type, and (b) does not look like her, because of the slouched pose, the floppy (though nice-looking) drapery, and other details of that kind, plus the thing she holds on her hand, evidently a Victoriola.*  She is, therefore, what a careful art historian calls a Variant of the Victrix Type.  One uses language like this when the derivation is plain but there are significant, not accidental changes.  I am reasonably comfortable going as far as Plautilla's Venus Victrix (RIC 369, pl. XIII, 14) without saying Variant, but the addition of Eros and the head, made to look like Plautilla herself, would justify calling it a variant.  On the other hand, Julia Domna's, though simplified relative to the Augustan and Flavian Venus Victrix, has the customary back view (it seems the statue was made to be viewed primarily thus) and LOOKS like the Venus Victrix Type, especially with respect to her stance.  The use of a Type (and we are talking here of an image in Rome that everyone knew) on a denarius-size coin or an aureus need not be exact in every detail but it must be unmistakable at a glance and not introduce significant variations.  I hope that is clear.  I didn't want to open a can of worms.  A very reasonable question (but without an answer) is whether in some other shrine, let's say in the suburbs or in some Horti, a statue like the one on Caracalla's antonininaus had been made.  That is not impossible.  None is among the statues from the Baths of Caracalla, so far as I know (wouldn't that be nice for us coin collectors!).  And there is so much variation in reverse dies, where some of the engravers might not have been natives of Rome, that the existence of a Variant actual image cannot be posited on the strength of reverse die variations alone.  Anyway, if there WAS a new variant somewhere, the Romans would promptly give it a new designation, let's pretend one such as Venus Britannica or Venus Parthica. depending on when she was made.  Just so, we must not extend a Type name to a statue that merely has a kindred allusion and utilizes reference to a famous type (and Septimius used it for Julia D. because it was famous).  But, yes, the mature Caracalla's antoninianus has a Variant type of the Victrix; it is not in the same category as Galeria Valeria's follis (which is why I posted the picture: that is the label of one famous Type stuck on the MOST famous Venus type for Rome, as Genetrix of Rome herself).  The Tetrarchy was not very Rome-centered, to put it mildly, and it is plain that Rome's shrines and their images were not decisive at Kyzikos or Thessaloniki or any other the other mints where Galeria's folles were struck.
P.S. Personifications are not, mostly, famous Types but elaborations of boilerplate sculptural conventions; they may vary more.  When they were famous, as the Tyche of Antioch by Eutychides, set up c. 270 BC, was, they are used just as exactly as the famous types of the Gods were.
Patricia Lawrence
*On closer examination, I think it may be a Palladion?

Offline *Alex

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Re: Venus Victrix
« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2005, 05:34:08 pm »
*On closer examination, I think it may be a Palladion?

Thank you for your very informative post. I agree the figure is indeed sketchy and difficult to make out but I think there are traces of wings which would be an attribute of Victory and would not Victory make more sense than Athena? Unless it was a copy of a Greek statue  ;D ;D. I was also led to believe that some coin types were copied from friezes and monumental panels, not exclusively statues, there are some examples in "The Monuments of Ancient Rome as Coin types" by Philip V.Hill. If so, there could be several alternative images of the same diety from the same temple. The image of the diety on, say an altar or sculpted panel on the exterior of a temple, would possibly be just as well known as the cult statue within it. And again, I suppose there is nothing really to stop the image portrayed being down to the "artistic license" of the celator. :-\

Alex.

Offline whitetd49

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Re: Venus Victrix
« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2005, 06:05:47 pm »
Much earlier in this thread, an article in the Celator was mentioned (June 2003, Vol 17, No. 6).  It specifically addresses Venus Victrix on the reverses of Roman Imperial Coins.  Four basic types are recognized:   Type I - VV shown from the back, leaning on a column with shield leaning, holding a spear, nude from the waist up, gazing at a Corithian helmet in her right hand;  Type II - VV with variations in her armament and attire, leaning on a column, holding a spear which may be replaced by a palm, gazing at a sword or apple in lieu of the helmet; Type III - VV in frontal view with variation in her attire, armament and posture, column and shield often retained, fully draped, helmet may be replaced with appleType A (anomaly) - VV either standing or sitting, gazing at a statuette or Victory, holding a spear.
List of Rulers for each type:
Type I - Octavian, Titus, Julia Flavia, Domitian, Domitia, Trajan, Sabina, Faustina II, Crispina.
Type II - Septimius Severus, Julia Domna, Caracalla
Type III - Caracalla, Plautilla, Julia Mamaea, Gordian III, Otacilia Severa, Magnia Urbica, Galeria Valeria
Type A - Julius Caesar, Faustina II, Lucilla, Caracalla.

Interestingly, some of these issues were issued concomitantly with known repairs to Pompey's Temple of VV.
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