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Author Topic: pupienus sestertius/quiz  (Read 2466 times)

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jakeveteran

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pupienus sestertius/quiz
« on: May 04, 2005, 07:05:44 pm »
hi all,

here is a very nice coin, but........., there is something 'different' about this coin.

your task is too determine what is a problem with the coin, and a detailed description of what may have caused it.

pupienus sestertius, 238 AD
PM TRP COS II P P SC
RIC 15, emperor standing left holding branch and parazonium
33.5 mm, 23.90 g
wonderful flan,
nice strike


even some nice red patina developing

all in all it is a nice coin, but there is something stopping it from being a very nice coin.  any thoughts....

jim hauck


Offline curtislclay

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Re: pupienus sestertius/quiz
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2005, 07:14:58 pm »
Seems a little doublestruck on both sides, producing breaks in the legends and types along the horizontal axis 9 to 3 o'cl. on both sides.
I think that togate figure on the rev. is not the emperor, as most of the reference books say, but the Genius of the Senate, and it's a short scepter not a parazonium that he's holding in his l. hand.
An appropriate rev. type for two emperors that the Senate raised to the purple from among its own members!
Curtis Clay

jakeveteran

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Re: pupienus sestertius/quiz
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2005, 07:25:25 pm »
curtis, i will give you the figure standing, but it is definitely a figure in a toga, so that does alot of eliminating.  i think the parazonium is splitting hairs, it could be either, maybe the celator wanted to engrave a short-sword but made it a bit too long.  can you give me another reference (i only have the old sear for this period - not RIC) that suggests it is Genius of the Senate

either than that you are on the right track, something SPECIFIC (you do know what it is - too easy for you) happened to this coin, stopping it from being a very nice specimen.  it was a shame, but could not be helped, or i am sure it was not given a second thought in antiquity.

jim hauck

Offline curtislclay

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Re: pupienus sestertius/quiz
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2005, 07:47:29 pm »
Jim,
      The identical figure, holding the scepter a bit differently, is labeled GENIO SENATVS on sestertii and dupondii on Ant. Pius, Sear 4177 and 4275, ill. by Van Meter 106.  The Genius of the Senate has a characteristic hairdo with a roll of hair above the neck that no emperor ever wore.
      This is not my discovery, it's in Alfoeldi's Insignien und Tracht of 1934 and many other places since then.  It's a shame, however, that Robert Carson didn't pick up this correction for his catalogue of Pupienus and Balbinus in BMC VI.
      NO togate figure, whether Genius of the Senate or Emperor, was ever depicted clutching a sword!  The toga was the civilian dress of peace, the sword of course belongs to a different realm.
      I don't see what's hurting the coin apart from the doublestriking, there you've got me mystified.
Curtis
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jakeveteran

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Re: pupienus sestertius/quiz
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2005, 09:22:27 pm »
thanks curtis for the info,

very interesting issue....,

RIC definitely lists the reverse as "Emperor, togate, stg. l, holding branch and parazonium",

Van Meter (for this coin and a similar coin from balbinus), (pupienus - 13/2, balbinus 12/2) "pupienus stg. l, holding branch and sceptre.


ERIC (i am still new at using this for attributions - ras you can comment if i am wrong) does not list a GENIO SENATVS, SC for AP, for pupienus they call the reverse "pupienus standing left holding branch and parazonium" with the PM TRP ....  reverse that my coin has, and the same (except obviously balbinus left) for balbinus
interesting that you brought up antoninus pius, when i checked van meter (AP - 106), the reverse legend is GENIO SENATVS, SC, and has the genius of the senate figure.  my coin does not have the GENIO SENATVS reverse legend, but i agree with you my coin reverse looks like the AP reverse.  HOWEVER van meter also says "only Antoninus depicted the Genius of the Senate on the reverse", but it is unclear if this means the legend or the figure.  there is no doubt my coin does not feature the same reverse legend as the AP coin.

based on the above, i still think the figure on my coin is meant to be the emperor, i believe if it was meant to represent the Genius of the Senate, the reverse legend would have reflected this, and been different. i agree the figures (genius of the senate and my coin) appear to be similar, and do share a characteristic hairdo, the sword was something i was unaware of, so i will bow to your knowledge, if we agree that it is a short sceptre does this change your observation

differences aside, this makes for an interesting discussion, looks like another we will never know for sure.


jim hauck

Offline curtislclay

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Re: pupienus sestertius/quiz
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2005, 09:49:10 pm »
Jim,
     It is the Genius of the Senate, beyond reasonable dispute.
     The emperor is NEVER depicted with a roll of hair above his neck, the Genius of the Senate ALWAYS has this hairdo.
     The emperor's titulature continuing onto the rev. does not mean that the figure depicted must be the emperor.  Sol, Jupiter, Serapis, Mars, Pax etc. are also depicted with such "dated" rev. legends, so of course the Genius of the Senate could be too.
      EVERYBODY who has read Alfoeldi's correction of this old error in 1934 has accepted it.  BMC, RIC, Van Meter, and ERIC are not DISPUTING Alfoeldi's observation, they were simply unaware of it!
Yours,
Curtis
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jakeveteran

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Re: pupienus sestertius/quiz/answer
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2005, 10:03:26 pm »
hi all,

OK,

we kind-of got side-tracked, but curtis was onto me anyway

he was right about the double-striking.
 
in fact, in hand, there is even evidence of triple-striking on the reverse.
 
i was looking for someone to say why there is evidence of triple-striking on the reverse, and it does not appear to be any major evidence of double-striking on the obverse.
 
as you know, coins were struck by hammer, with the obverse (in most cases) fixed in an anvil/vice, and the reverse die likely held by tongs.  the romantic in me likes to think when the slave initially struck the coin, the force was enough to seat (lock-in) the obverse side, but the slave picked up the reverse die to look at it, and see if the reverse impression was 'good enough'.  for this coin he decided it needed another whack, so he placed the die back in place (but imperceptidly it was slightly off) and whacked it again.  for the case of this coin he repeated the process one more time. the resulk was a 'rounding' of the reverse legend
 
what was i trying to illustrate...? this illustrates a coin that has evidence of triple-striking on the reverse, but looks like only a single-strike on the obverse.  previous to thinking about this in-depth, and doing some research i could not figure how triple-striking on only one side was possible.

my comment was, it is sure to bad the coin has evidence of double/striking on the reverse, or based on the lovely flan and the obverse centering and striking, it would be a very nice coin indeed.

jim hauck

Offline curtislclay

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Re: pupienus sestertius/quiz
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2005, 10:09:34 pm »
The obv. too is doublestruck, I think.  Evidence: the mushy extra letter between IMP and CAES on the left; the weakness and fuzziness of NV on the right; perhaps a doubled shadow of the beard edge a little below the main edge.
Curtis Clay

Offline slokind

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Re: pupienus sestertius/quiz
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2005, 10:41:55 pm »
And though Alfoeldi and Curtis are the last men to need it, let me endorse them from representations in larger media: that hair is decisive.  And of all the weapons that one would never bring into the Curia, the parazonium is if anything the most taboo, being very unceremonial, a very practical side arm in the fieldPat Lawrence

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: pupienus sestertius/quiz
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2005, 01:48:54 am »
Pat: Are you able to show us any of these "representations in larger media"? Not that I am not convinced, just that I would love to see them!

Jim: The picture of the rev is a bit out of focus, making it hard to see details of as much as a triple-strike... any chance of a clearer one?

Thanks all,
Steve

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Re: pupienus sestertius/quiz
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2005, 04:30:24 am »
The locus classicus is the pair of Domitianic reliefs (with some re-cutting for Nerva, but not of our Genii) found just before W W II under tha Palazzo della Cancelleria in Rome.  The are called the Profectio (Virtus urging Domitian off on campaign, with the two Genii among those saying goodbye) and the Adventus (of Vespasian, greeted by Domitian, in the presence of, inter alios, the two Genii).  After some cropping and drastic compression, here is the relevant figure group from the Profectio:
Behind (r. of) Virtus, in the foreground Genius Senatus (mature and decently clad and with that short scepter or baton of office) and Genius Populi (bare-chested, with his cornucopiae) followed by a soldier.

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Re: pupienus sestertius/quiz
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2005, 04:34:35 am »
And here, from the Adventus panel, are, l. to r., a lictor, Genius Senatus in background, Domitian, Genius Populi (or, some say, Honos) in the background, Vespasian.
Patricia Lawrence

 

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