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Author Topic: Chauvinism in science  (Read 3950 times)

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Offline Jochen

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Chauvinism in science
« on: December 08, 2007, 05:26:36 pm »
Hi!

When I was searching for information for one of my mythological articles I came across this site
http://www.snetaca.org/view_document.php?d=opinion&id=24

Horribile lectu! Sometimes I think the worldwide net is on the way to Jorge Luis Borges' Library of Babel!

Best regards

Offline slokind

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2007, 06:29:11 pm »
This sort of thing is always with us.  It is the sort of thing that leads even to assassination attempts.  Just today, on C-SPAN's BookTV I heard a man in the audience give a long Spiel on some sort of  God-marker in human DNA, and he could hardly bring himself to respond to prompting that Questions for the Author must be Questions.  The book and author were Craig Vener, A Life Decoded: My Genome, My Life.  The author tolerated it and answered the question when finally asked.  But the librarian in charge of the occasion would have liked more persons to be able to ask their questions.
Any of us could cite other instances of ideological rants.  It is too bad that persons waste their minds on such stuff, and sometimes, of course, it can be dangerous.  It occurs in waves, and those of us who are old enough can remember several such waves.
That is why I was so saddened when I saw objections to the word 'Orientalizing' as a name for the prevalent tendencies in Early Archaic Greek art.  The use of any word may be inadequate or inaccurate, but that doesn't make it a crime!  Similarly the words Archaic and Classical are holdovers from earlier thought, but they aren't really a problem.  Indeed, learning how they came to be used is part of one's education in the history of thought.
Jochen is right, IMO.  That is a shocking piece that he came across.
Pat L.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2007, 06:31:44 pm »
There are always the purveyors of total gibberish and their audience of the willingly self-deceived. I've met plenty of it in the church. The thing is, to spot them, and not to allow them to gain too much influence.
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Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2007, 07:22:17 pm »
Hell rubbish likes this makes a far wider impact.  I remember a programme on the History Channel devoted to the concept that Cleopatra VII was black.

Steve

Offline Arminius

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2007, 07:45:51 pm »
And there was a guy telling us the church faked up additional 4-6 centuries during the medieval ages to support their claims.
(I wonder who managed to fake up and distribute all the corresponding coins and year-lines in old wood.)

Offline Jochen

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2007, 07:51:40 pm »
Referring to the 'black chauvinism', I think it's an answer to the white racism.

Offline Howard Cole

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2007, 06:35:45 am »
Hi!

When I was searching for information for one of my mythological articles I came across this site
http://www.snetaca.org/view_document.php?d=opinion&id=24

Horribile lectu! Sometimes I think the worldwide net is on the way to Jorge Luis Borges' Library of Babel!

Best regards


I wouldn't call this science!  The author of this piece is an electrical engineer.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2007, 08:28:36 am »
Cleopatra was obviously Greek, and what little I know of the Ptolemys suggests that they'd probably have been unwilling to intermarry with native Egyptians. I can see where it comes from though; there have been some pretty shameless attempts in the past to Europeanise the Egyptians, and this is an over-reaction to that tendency. Its a pity as it's not only misleading, but there are plenty of genuinely black rulers out there who we could do with hearing more about.
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Metrodorus

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2007, 04:48:24 pm »
There are no words to describe what I'm feeling right now after reading said essay..... so many historical inaccuracies! >:(

Offline Ardatirion

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2007, 07:05:05 pm »
Wow. I couldn't even finish reading it.

basemetal

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2007, 10:46:19 pm »
You know all this is pure bunk.  Ancient aliens actually taught all of our ancestors to build, in stone(too bad about not letting us in on star travel capability-or even steam power-or that  a shrewed unbathed native did not notice  that if an alien got whacked you could appropriate his laser cannon and become a king-at least for a little while- till the batteries ran down).
The ancient builders of the pyramids were actually an alien-human hybrids with superior mental powers.
Lessseee....oh...my ancestors were Scotch-Irish-German-But!  Ancient aliens had added to their DNA to make them want to travel to far places as opposed to the common ruck who stayed within 25 miles of their birthplaces. They taught us to distill whiskey-the usigebah "water of life" but left out the crucial elements that would have given us immortality.  Only the hangover is left.
Hey...yeah...and faries...actually an alien race that hid in the woods and were seen by only a few...yeah..and how about trolls-criminals from an alien race whose ancestors were amphibian-like-that's why they were under bridges-moist conditions-died out because they so liked whiskey...and dragons...simply alien lifeforms that escaped the alien colony ships and were seen by the ancient..and hey...how about...and..
Pullllease!
Basemetal

Offline gallienus1

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2007, 06:02:41 am »

Yes that is an appallingly chauvinistic article. Of course we can’t help to be a little biased at times, but for most of us a reasoned argument will result in a change of view, even if we don’t like it. I suppose it is the Enlightenment concept that it is better to be unhappy with the truth than content with lies. Archaeology and history have always been misused by those with a religious or political agenda they want legitimated. I can think of white South Africans claiming that Great Zimbabwe was built by the Phoenicians because the native peoples couldn’t possibly have built it- they were black!

Steve

Offline Bill S

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2007, 08:18:32 pm »
Wow. I couldn't even finish reading it.
Me neither.  It's the kind of thing that can only be tolerated in very small doses - and I doubt there would be enough benefit to justify administering more doses. 

I guess that's the electronic equivalent of fools standing on corners preaching their own gibberish to passersby.  Or the mimeograph machine in the basement pumping out handouts on the "secret truths they don't want you to know".  Mildly annoying at worst, slightly amusing on good days. 

Offline GMoneti

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2007, 11:25:43 pm »
I suppose the author could spin in that way - the Turks have some similar words to Native American languages, therefore they were the first to settle the continent, later overwhelmed by the people we call "native" today, who retained some of the Turkish language.   ::)  You know, I am sure that any language has some words that sound similar to words of any other language.  That is not a basis for making such grand statements.  National pride goes only to a certain level.  Anything above that is lunacy, or political agenda. 

P.S. The Thracians were not Turks, sorry. 

:-X
Georgi

Offline Jochen

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2007, 06:15:53 am »
Hi!

Back to the truth! Here are some historical facts:

The first historical mentioned Turkish tribe were the Huns. Chinese sources date their appearance to 800 BC and called them Hiung-nu.
The first state was founded in AD 552 by Bumin Khan for the Gök Turks in Middle Asia. From this time some famous grave inscription (the Orhun epitaphs) are found in Tonyukuk (AD 720), Kültigin (AD 731) and Bilge Kagan (AD 734). The reign of the Gök Turks was ceased by another Turksh people, the Uygurs. The basin where they lived in is known as Turkstan.
In 1229 the Mongols finished the reign of the Uygurs but the Uygurs became their cultural and political mentors.

At the begin of the 8th century AD the Turks met the Islam and started to prefer it During the reign of the Abbside many Moslem Turks got high functions in the Abbside administration and the Turkish interest in Islam spread over the river Ceyhun. An important role played trading caravans. At the end of the 10th century all Turks have been islamisized. This fact led to a political unity. And so the first Moslem Turkish state was founded by the Karahans.

The Karahans reigned from AD 990-AD1212 in Turkstan and Maveraünnehir. It was very important for the Turkish culture and history of art. Buchara and Samarkand were the centres of education. The Turkish language developed.

The state Ghaznavi was founded AD 963 by the Turkish ruler Sevuktekin, and under his reign the Turks expanded to Northern India. AD 1186 this state broke apart and was integrated into the Oguz.

These Oguz succeded in conquering Anatolia, the southern parts of the Caucasus, Aserbeidschan and the northern part of Iran. The Turks calls the Oguz 'Turkmens'.

Tugrul Bey and Cagri (Cakir) Bey were grand-sons of the Seljucs. Their name was adopted by the Seljuc dynasty. They conquered Horosan and defeated the Ghaznavidic ruler Mesud in the battle of Dandanakan and founded the big empire of the Seljucs.

In AD 1071 Arp Arslan (AD 1063-1072) commanded the battle of Malazgirt. After he has defeated in this battle the  army of the Byzantine conquerer the Anatolian doors opened for the Moslem Turks.

Therefore the year AD 1071 is looked at as the begin of the Turkish and Moslem Anatolia (= Asia Minor). From now on the Turks conquered from year to year the entire Anatolia. They founded the Anatolian part of the big empire of the Seljuks.

Here I want to stop. We know that in AD 1453 the Ottomans conquered Constantinopolis and founded Istanbul.

We now have heard that the Turks came from Middle Asia and have no political influence in Asia Minor until AD 1071, long after the founding of Byzanz.

Sources:
http://www.tcberlinbe.de/de/turkei/g_tuerkentuerkei.htm (Document of the Turkish embassy in Germany)

And naturally the Thracians were Indo-Europeans as were the Hithits who inhabitant Asia minor at the begin of historical times.

Best regards

Offline hannibal2

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2007, 09:07:49 am »
PLEASE thread carefully. A couple of comments if I may:

The article at the root of this thread reminds of how Hrozny deciphered Hittite hieroglyphic, from similarities of Hittite to German words. The Hittite capital was then in central Turkey (2nd millennium BCE). As GMoneti said, there were/are shared words in many languages.

Please note also that Thomas Young, a physicist, made the first step to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphics; and Michael Ventris who deciphered the Aegean Linear B was an architect. There may be other latent talent in an individual other than what is apparent on his label.

The advice I try to give myself is to be cautiously sceptical of everything, but discard nothing until proven.

The above information was taken from a book by the late Cyrus Gordon “Forgotten scripts”, to whom I feel indebted for an introduction to another world.

One question to Basemetal please. Aren’t WE (ourselves) the aliens on this planet? For sometime I had this suspicion that, like yeast in wine that die off from the alcohol they themselves generate, we are here to recycle the locked carbon in the earth, then conveniently expire as a result of that, having regenerated the earth. From last night’s news on climate change we seem to have done it.

Regards

cr

Offline Jochen

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2007, 09:21:25 am »
Hi cr!

I think it is not correct when you write: "The Hittite capital was then in central Turkey (2nd millennium BCE)." There was no Turkey 2nd millenium BC! I think these incorrectnesses are part of the misunderstanding of our history as we have seen here par excellence!

Best regards

Offline hannibal2

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2007, 09:58:15 am »
Hello Jochen,

Of course. I should have said "what is today central Turkey".

The main point of my penny's worth is to be careful. There is much that is not what it seems to be or what has been taking for granted till recent. Revisions of ideas have been taking place, based on new findings. And fora such as this can be very useful avenues to that end.

regards

cr




Offline Ardatirion

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2007, 06:00:45 pm »
The main point of my penny's worth is to be careful. There is much that is not what it seems to be or what has been taking for granted till recent. Revisions of ideas have been taking place, based on new findings. And fora such as this can be very useful avenues to that end.

Undoubtedly, revisions have and will continue to be made. This is the very nature of science. But a well established truth cannot (and should not) be overturned by a handful of coincidences. It takes an overwhelming amount of information to overturn something like this person is trying to do.

Offline Jochen

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2007, 06:28:06 pm »
I want to thank Ardatirion for his contribution! I agree totally with his opinion.

Dear cr, when you write: The advice I try to give myself is to be cautiously sceptical of everything, but discard nothing until proven., then I would agree if you would mean that it deserves strong arguments to overthrow a well established theory which based on many consistent scientific evidence. But sadly you mean the opposite! Be cautious! To be sceptic means too not to be too gullible towards any claims.

Best regards

basemetal

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2007, 11:20:06 pm »
I'm reminded of a previous post I made concerning a book "1421, The Year China Discovered The World"
The author starts out with a fascinating read based on proven historical facts concerning the power of the Chinese maritime during this era.  Huge junks, huge fleets made voyages as far as Madigascar, at least.
But then the author gradually tries to draw one in to the theory that all the islands of the Atlantic, the east coast of the U.S, the west coast of the U.S., Australia and many other places were visited by great fleet(s) of Chinese explorers.
I think he relies on specious arguments. 
If this is so, then this must be so sort of thing.  By this method, one can "prove" that prepackaged chicken dinners are a factor in the majority of commercial aircraft disasters.  Find me an air crash.
Whoa!  Chicken dinners served on every one or most.  Mmmm....
People so often lose sight of or forget scientific theory.  And replication of an experiment or finds as demonstrable proof of a theory.
In truth one example in archeology is: Roman Artifact Found in New Jersey!
I like this one because the inner soul of me wants so much for the romans, through tempest, storm, luck or design to have reached American shores.
In actual fact, even if a perfectly preserved gladius were found in an Indian burial mound, properly excavated, cataloged and proven to be not an intrusion, would still be an anomaly, and not proof that the romans were building villas in Pennsauken. Not yet time to start rewriting history books.  But it would not stop the flood of books supporting the
"fact" that Romans were here, and so go get out those metal detectors and start gathering up the denarii.  Find another gladius nearby, plus terracotta and roman household goods and latin text on marble, and.....well, unproven still, but if found in situ and studied.....well....maybe..sorta. Unproven, but more possible. Not a fact, but more likely. 
Then study the ancient writings back in Rome, and find evidence of an expedition that specifically sent colonists beyond the the pillars  of Hercules, also dated to the time of deposition of the found artifacts,
and now you have a possibility. But still not time to dust off the metal detector. Sadly, more proof is needed.  So many people accept that first gladius as "proof".
"Those damn stick-in-the mud scholars. Can't they SEE?"
If that one gladius was accepted, then why not accept the "Punic, or Roman, or whatever inscriptions supposedly found in the U.S. as proof?  The timeline of history would be whipsawed back and forth with each SINGLE new discovery.
The Carthigininans were first! No!  The Irish were first!  No, the Romans were first! Saw a mideval painting with obvious UFOs in it.  Aliens were first!
Sorry for the long post.  But boring as it is, stick with the proven timeline of history, until PROOF is revealed that it was/is different.  Then feel free to tell any "learned expert" who ignores such proof to kiss your AE As.
Bruce
Basemetal

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Chauvinism in science
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2007, 04:54:18 pm »
That's the classic technique. You start with something well argued, get the reader on your side, then start feeding them little bits of nonsense. By the time you've finished, if you've done it well, you'll have some people believing that the moon is made of green cheese.
Robert Brenchley

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