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Author Topic: This is really annoying...  (Read 885 times)

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Offline helvetica

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This is really annoying...
« on: August 28, 2021, 10:48:45 am »
I was just tidying up some Augustus quadrans on wildwinds and realised that RIC and BMC do not agree with each other.

Let us take the RIC 443-464 as an example. This is the quadrans type with moneyers' names around an altar one one side, and two more moneyers' names around SC on the reverse.

According to RIC, the SC is the obverse and the altar is the reverse.
According the BMCRE, the altar is the obverse and the SC is the reverse.

According to RIC ALL the SC are surrounded by legends (11 listed) ending in III VIR and the altar have those ending in AAAFF.
According to BMCRE ALL the SC are surrounded by legends ending in AAAFF and the altar have those ending in III VIR.

Looking at the examples on wildwinds, it seems to me that pages 76/77 in RIC I are incorrect. The "around SC" needs to be changed to "around altar" and those for the "around altar" changed to "around SC" and, in the list of references, Obv. and Rev. need to be swapped over, then they would correspond to known coins.


Offline shanxi

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Re: This is really annoying...
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2021, 10:56:25 am »
It's interessting that in OCRE, which is mainly RIC online,  the SC is the reverse and ends on AAAFF:
(at least for the two examples I checked)

http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.1(2).aug.443
http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.1(2).aug.444

Offline helvetica

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Re: This is really annoying...
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2021, 11:18:28 am »
For 444, RIC gives
Obv APRONIVS MESSALLA III VIR around SC
Rev SISENNA GALVS AAAFF around altar

The one depicted on numismatics.org has the legends the other way round. See what I mean ?
Seeing as the legend around SC is on the reverse of all the other quadrans, I'm going to change the order of "obv/rev" on the wildwinds coins to have the altar on the obverse.

Offline shanxi

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Re: This is really annoying...
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2021, 11:29:42 am »
I wonder if the OCRE People made the change on their own, or if there was a RIC correction.

Romanatic writes e.g.:  RIC² 443 b corr.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: This is really annoying...
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2021, 12:24:41 pm »
This was Sutherland's mistake in his 1984 revision of RIC I.

Every owner of that volume should make these corrections:

On p. 76 at bottom, write "Altar" in place of "around S C".

On p. 77 at top, the description "around S C" applies to the Rev. types A-M, not to the Obv. legends 1-11 as printed. Similarly the description "around altar" etc. applies to the Obv. legends 1-11, not to the Rev. types A-M.
Curtis Clay

Offline Pekka K

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Re: This is really annoying...
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2021, 12:48:02 pm »

First edition has these right described.

Pekka K

Offline helvetica

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Re: This is really annoying...
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2021, 01:20:12 pm »
Pekka
I wish I could find a pdf of the first edition. !

To help sort these out I have just put together an xls file, with the usual dropdown columns.
The link is just above RIC 443 on the wildwinds Augustus page.

I also noticed that lots of sellers on CoinArchives Pro, including some of the "big names" have been confused over the error and have misattributed their coins. I checked all the entries on wildwinds, corrected them when necessary and added a few more.

Offline vrtsprb

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Re: This is really annoying...
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2021, 12:00:15 pm »
I'm tilting at similar windmills, although not to such extent as you. So much fun to resolve all the contradictions, and errors based on trusting 16th century sources, or even 19th century ones. Hats off (oh, bother! the wild winds took them) for all the work you do.

G/<

Offline Aleph

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Re: This is really annoying...
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2021, 06:11:33 pm »
The revised ric is wrong, wrong!  As a collector of the minor fractions, this error has proved an endless point of confusion.  If I recall, I asked this question on forum about 15 years ago when I was just getting into quadrantes.  Occasionally, an observant dealer will provide an attribution with the corr particle.

 

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