Rome vs. Antioch mint for Philip and family

[gustrot]

Good morning estimated members of Forvm,

My current subject of interest is around Philippvs and his family, and I feel a bit confused in spotting whether a coin has been struck in Roma or in Antioch.

I guess it comes with years of practice and I reviewed quite a lot of coins in Internet and begin to be able to point out the coins, but, looking at Wild Wind, I felt sad with the following :

http://wildwinds.com/coins/ric/philip_I/RIC_0004.7.jpg



It is given for Roma whereas I would have expected it to be from Antioch, especially with the form of sharp V in the legend.

So I am confused and wanted to ask if you guys have some tips that helps spotting the mint when the legend and reverse are exactly the same, what happens quite often with Philippvs...

Thanks in advance and have a good day !

[silvernut]

This one is Antioch. A knowledgeable collector of Philippus once told me that the Antiochs can be spotted easily because the little hair lines on Philip's head are parallel to the rays of the crown, whereas in Rome, they are perpendicular. I guess that's true, in this case.

As you say, with practice you get used to the different styles.

Regards,
Ignasi

[gustrot]

Thanks a lot for your answer and the tip, I just checked in dozens of coins whose mint does not make any doubt without finding an exception, so that seems to be a very reliable technique !

Many thanks again, have a good day

[curtislclay]

A knowledgeable collector of Philippus once told me that the Antiochs can be spotted easily because the little hair lines on Philip's head are parallel to the rays of the crown, whereas in Rome, they are perpendicular.

This seems to be an important observation, which I had never heard before. If it was an original observation of the collector you spoke with, he should be named, so that due credit can be assigned to him! Or if he just read it somewhere, I'd be interested to know if he could tell you where.

[Callimachus]

An interesting observation, so I checked the Philip antoniniani in my collection that RIC assigns to Antioch.
I found at least 3 that do not hold up to this observation.  But maybe RIC is wrong . . .
RIC 69
RIC 70
RIC 86a

[Callimachus]

And 2 others for which this observation applies, both of Philip II:
RIC 232
RIC 238 var.

[curtislclay]

The first two can be excluded, since they come from a different series struck at the beginning rather than towards the end of the reign, which have their own obv. legends ending P M and their own rev. types rather than copying Roman legends and types. So there is no possibility of confusing these coins with those from Rome!

The third coin would be an exception to the rule, but the observation would still be useful if it applies in most cases.

Hairs at right angles to the crown rays is certainly the rule at Rome, as shown by a quick look at 20 or 30 of the 150 or so Rome-mint Philip I antoniniani currently in HJB stock.

A smaller sample of only six Antioch antoniniani indeed all show the hairs parallel to the crown rays.

This rule doesn't seem to apply to radiate Antioch tetradrachms of Phulip I-II, judging from Prieur's illustrations. There the hairs are often at right angles to the crown rays, as at Rome, presumably because there was more room on these larger coins to depict the hairs properly!

[SC]

I agree with Curtis.  It would be nice to give due credit to whomever made this astute observation, even if as shown with RIC 86a it is not a 100% rule.  It certainly appears to give guidance in the high 90s and that is a great diagnostic tool.

Shawn

[silvernut]

Sorry for not replying earlier... It was Thibaut Marchal, who used to participate also here at FORVM (don't know if he does anymore...). He actually was kind enough to write to me the following useful insights:

"1/ tous les bustes à gauche, ainsi que tous les bustes à droite vus de devant sont d'Antioche (tous les autres ateliers représentent les bustes cuirassés et drapés vu de l'arrière)
2/ pour les bustes cuirassés et drapés vu de l'arrière, il faut regarder l'orientation des cheveux au dessus de la couronne (voir fichier joint) : si les cheveux sont vers le haut et dans la même direction que les rayons de la couronne radiée, alors l'atelier est Antioche. Si les cheveux sont perpendiculaires aux rayons de la couronne, alors l'atelier est Rome (je ne connais qu'un seul coin d'Antioche sur lequel les cheveux ne sont pas dans la bonne direction)
Ceci n'est pas valable pour les monnaies aux types SPES FELICITATIS ORBIS, PAX FVNDATA CVM PERSIS et VIRTVS EXERCITVS qui présentent simultanément les 2 types d'orientation. Mais ces monnaies ne sont pas d'Antioche, mais d'un atelier non identifié, probablement Syrien, qui a frappé des monnaies en 244 pour la guerre contre les Perse."

And below is the picture he used to illustrate his findings (I hope I'm not causing him any annoyance by disclosing the origin of these observations...).

Regards,
Ignasi

[gustrot]

And the full explaination in French, this is perfect

Merci beaucoup à Thibaut pour ses astuces et son site Internet très précieux !

Unfortunately, Thibaut's website has not been updated for 18 months, so I am afraid he may be at least making a pause with Philip's Antioch coins...

[SC]

For the benefit of any collectors who don't speak French here is my rough translation of M. Marchal's posting.  Square brackets [  ] contain my own notes, round brackets (  ) are in the original.

Shawn


"1/ All left facing busts and all right facing busts viewed from front [my note: therefore with shoulder behind the ear] are from Antioch.  All the other mints used the right facing draped and cuirassed bust viewed from the rear [my note: therefore with shoulder in front of ear].

2/ For the right facing draped and cuirassed busts viewed from the rear it is necessary to examine the orientation of the hair lines above the radiate crown (see the image attached) [in Silvernut's posting above].  If the hair lines run upward, and therefore in the same direction as the rays of the crown, then it is from the Antioch mint.  If the hair lines run side to side, and therefore perpendicular to the rays of the crown, then it is from the Rome mint.  (I [Thibaut Marchal] known of only one die from Antioch where the hair lines do not run in the correct direction).

These rules do not apply for coins of the SPES FELICITATIS ORBIS, PAX FVNDATA CVM PERSIS and VIRTVS EXERCITVS types which have, simultaneously, both orientations [my note: I don't know whether he means that the hair lines on a given coin will run in both directions or that a given coin type can be found with hair lines running in either direction]. But these coins are not from Antioch, they are instead from an unidentified mint, probably Syrian, that struck the coins in AD 244 for the war against the Persians."

[Priscus]

salvo

here in my gallery you can also find a listing of antioch and rome coins of philip.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=4607

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=lastup&cat=35089

priscus