Reference/mint help with a philisto imitative owl, please

[casata137ec]

Evening allI have been slowly cleaning this guy for the last couple of weeks (as time permited) and it turned out to much nicer than I could have imagined. Pleasent suprise after what has been a really cruddy couple of weeks! Anyway, I have found references of a sort for philisto-imitative obols weighing in at less than a gram, but this guy is 3x's heavier (drachm?), so I am sort of stuck. Also, mint? Gaza(?) (with the question mark) is what I have found for the obols, I am assuming it is the same for the larger coins as well?

Chris

PS The flan is awfully crude. When I first got out of the army, I worked at a scrap yard while trying to get reaquainted with the real world. Every once in a while a somone would bring in "plops". "Plops" were when liquid metal would spill and cool on contact. This flan reminds me of that. If anyone has any info on the making of these coins, I would be interested in learning!
C.

15x11mm 3.72g

[Enodia]

is that an amphora behind the owl?

[casata137ec]

No, it looks like some leaves (lotus?) and a cresent.

Chris

edit: Here is a bigger pic of the rev.
C.

[Lloyd Taylor]

is that an amphora behind the owl?

Spray of olive leaves and a crescent is the standard description.  Uncleaned the vertical olive leaf does looks like an amphora, but there is no confusion on the cleaned item.

Nice cleaning job and a great little coin. Likely to be an eastern imitative (Gaza or similar ?) in small denomination (eastern weight standard drachm? - conforms closely to any one of the Phoenician, Rhodian, or later Ptolemaic standards with drachms in the range 3.5-3.8 gms) but that is the limit of my knowledge on this type.  The Phoenician standard was pretty common throughout the region at the likely time this was struck and it is argued by some that the later Ptolemaic standard emulated it to facilitate trade.   

[Enodia]

ah, okay. i didn't realise the other image was the same coin or i would have waited another couple of minutes for it to load.

and i agree with Lloyd, a great cleaning job!

~ Peter

[rover1.3]

Hi Chris

I found these examples

http://www.acsearch.info/ext-record.html?id=59033
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They are described as 4th century B.C. Philisto Arabian,Athenian type drachms.
 
However,the style of your coin is very very similar to the style of the Athenians of 4th century B.C.
I am not convinced at all that this is an imitation and not the 'real' Athenian drachm of the era.Both Athena(eye in profile) and the owl are well defined,the legend reads AΘΕ.
The rendition and placement of the olive leaves and the crescent, the owl with some really good detail,the style of the visible A..
I mean,i see no crude stylistical elements to lead me towards an imitation.Even the oblong flan, reminds me of typical tight 'log' flans on late Athenian coins of 4th century..
On drachms of 5th century bc,there is no crescent on reverse,but on 4th century Athenian drachms crescent is there and this is clearly a 4th century example.
Of course the lower than the typical 4.2g weight must be considered,but again,is not very very far.

I am not saying is Athenian,but i am not convinced it is not!Anyway,very very interesting and really beautiful!

[casata137ec]

Thanks everyone. Rover has now got me wondering...maybe I'll do some checking and see if I can find Athenian drachm online and see if I can find a match...it probably is just what the imitatives looked like when they were struck and we just see the remains after 2000 years of use.

Chris

[rover1.3]

Some Athenian 4th century b.c drachms

http://www.acsearch.info/ext-record.html?id=132336
http://www.acsearch.info/ext-record.html?id=67521
http://www.acsearch.info/ext-record.html?id=99379

Look now the similarities of your coin's flan,with some flans of 4th century Athenian tetradrachms. These oblong flans are typical on late 4th century owls.

http://www.acsearch.info/ext-record.html?id=14552
http://www.acsearch.info/ext-record.html?id=178910
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As i said before, i can't say with certainty about the origin of your beautiful coin,however i think it's style doesn't look so obviously imitative to me.
For me,there are some good chances this to be Athenian.
If you check online,i think you will agree that the majority of Philisto owl 'drachms' you will find,looks much cruder than your 'drachm'.

[casata137ec]

As i said before, i can't say with certainty about the origin of your beautiful coin,however i think it's style doesn't look so obviously imitative to me.
For me,there are some good chances this to be Athenian.
If you check online,i think you will agree that the majority of Philisto owl 'drachms' you will find,looks much cruder than your 'drachm'.

I understand. Coins like this drive me crazy. It is light and the flan is crazed, but the detail and strike are efficient and clean, and skillfully done. I have been checking for a while now and yes, you are correct, I have yet to find an example of an imitative as well done. With that said, I have no clue and will probably end up referencing it as an imitative with the Gaza(?) mint notation...or simply "uncertain origin" and give both references! lol

Chris