Help With Identification Of This Babylonian coin?

[torinogt1968]

Hi, can anyone shed some light on this coin that I have had in my possession for over 35+ years. I have only been able to find one photo of this exact coin at snible.org/coins/hn/babylonia.html (fig. 357) and you may want to go there for a better view of this coin as my photos aren't very clear due to close up issues and I do not have a scanner. In my research, I have found a lot of similar coins, but have never been able to find any other information other than at Ed Snible's site about this particular coin. I will have to take this somewhere to have weighed and will post weight soon. Any help is greatly appreciated. Marc Tower, Flora, IL., 618-662-2417. tower68gt@verizon.net

[nikos k]

Clearer pictures should help very much.The detail look a little bit soft to my eye.
But this is maybe because of the unsharp photos.

[Lloyd Taylor]

Appears to be  BABYLON. Under Alexander III. Mazaios, Satrap. 331-328 BC. AR Double Shekel

Similar to these:
http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?search=mazaios+babylon+bltrz&view_mode=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1#1 (second and third examples)

It is hard to say from the relatively poor photos, but some aspects appear anomalous to the extent that it may be a modern reproduction.  I am not an expert in the type, and with this qualification I make the observation that I do not think this Mazaios Babylon series was ever produced with the lion standing on a club as appears the case from the photo of the reverse. A ground line is the norm and I have confirmed this with reference to Mitchiner's catalogue. Moreover, the head of the sceptre held by Baal is similarly anomalous and the Aramaic legend on the obverse does not look right, although hard to say exactly from the poor photo.

[torinogt1968]

Thanks Lloyd, the links show 'similar' coins to what I have. Please see the coin at Ed Snible's site as this depicts the exact coin that I have. Can this still be a reproduction since I have had this coin for 35 to 38 years? Just wondering here and, if it is a reproduction, where are more coins like this to prove, or disprove this assumption? Also, if you go to Ed Snible's site you will see that the lion is standing on the ground and not on a 'club' as you are stating. Again, I apologize for the poor photos, but, encourage anyone to go to Ed Snible's site for better clarification/verification. Thanks, in advance, for your help. Marc Tower.

[areich]

It appears modern, as far as one can tell from the photos. 38 years are nothing, modern fakes have been around
for a while. The only thing that can help clearing it up are better pictures of your coin or alternately taking it to a coin dealer
that knows ancient coins. A dealer in modern coins will not help.

[esnible]

This coin looks identical to a coin in the British Museum which can be seen on my web site:
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/babylonia.html

The test cut is even in the same position.

[maridvnvm]

But this one seems to have something stamped at between 3 and 5 o'clock. The word "COPY" perhaps?
Martin

[Lloyd Taylor]

This coin looks identical to a coin in the British Museum which can be seen on my web site:
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/babylonia.html

The test cut is even in the same position.

Shows the problem with the poor photos of the coin.  My eyes saw the test cut as the anomalous head of the scepter!  Note however, that the ground line (which I interpreted as a club from the photos) on which the lion stands appears to be a bit more than a photographic artifact.  That said, if it is indeed identical to the BM specimen then it is likely one of the electrotype reproductions that were produced extensively by the BM in the first half of the 20th century.  The BM ceased production of these when it became that they wete being passed of as the real thing in the numismatic market.

Better photos would greatly assist in the determination.

[Lloyd Taylor]

But this one seems to have something stamped at between 3 and 5 o'clock. The word "COPY" perhaps?
Martin

I think your correct.  This was part of what I saw as the anomalous Aramaic legend in my original post.  The photos are so lousy that its impossible to say with absolute certainty.

[torinogt1968]

Thanks for all of the help, I really do appreciate it. I don't believe that the word 'copy' is at the 3 to 5 o'clock position as Martin is stating, but, again, I sincerely apologize for the poor photos as I'm sure you all could be of much more help with better photos. Can anyone refer me to a reputable coin dealer that would be knowledgeable in this type of coin? Thanks again, Marc Tower, Flora, IL., 618-662-2417. I actually specialize in 68-69 Fairlane/Torino/Cobra/Cyclone/Montego/Ranchero and have sixty cars for parts.

[nikos k]

The fact that the coin is IDENTICAL IN ALL aspects to the coin in the BM,
isn't enough to prove that this is maybe a reproduction of the BM's coin?
Im not trying to say that is fake.
I am just asking,just to have a better understanding!

[Lloyd Taylor]

...Can anyone refer me to a reputable coin dealer that would be knowledgeable in this type of coin? Thanks again, Marc Tower, Flora, IL., 618-662-2417. I actually specialize in 68-69 Fairlane/Torino/Cobra/Cyclone/Montego/Ranchero and have sixty cars for parts.

I suggest you get a hand lens and examine the the near edge of the coin behind the throne.  If you see the words COPY in small print then you have the answer...a BM electrotype.

Now post some (good) photos of the car collection (at least the ones not in parts). Clint Eastwood's marvelous social commentary Gran Torino has stirred an interest in the anchor point of the movie, the muscle car.  Maybe if I flog my coin collection......

[commodus]

I can't tell more from the blurry photos on this post than  from the same blurry photos on your other post on this very same board. One posting and better images would be ideal. The overall look of it, though, definitely suggests modern fake. A decent image of each side might either confirm or dispel that suggestion.

[Barabus]

 Comparing the two photographs from you and esnible's. Yours has something written in small letters in the 3 to 5 position and esnible's. I suggest it says copy.

[torinogt1968]

I certainly do appreciate all of the insight and help with this coin. I'll get a magnifying glass and inspect the words at or near the 5 o'clock position as I hadn't even noticed what this could possibly be, and especially something possibly written in plain english. Lol. Of course everyone does wish to have an authentic and rare ancient coin in their posession, but, that is not always reality. I try to describe anything and everything to the best of my ability and don't believe in misleading others into thinking something isn't exactly what it is supposed to be. Thus bringing this to your attention as this is certainly not my area of expertise. So, this is why I was referred to you all, as knowledgeable and helpful as you have all been. Again, I sincerely appreciate all of the help and I have learned a lot from this discussion. Regards, Marc Tower, Flora, IL., 618-662-2417.

[areich]

Marc, it doesn't even have to say COPY. There are several different marks you can find on such coins.
SANDOZ and WRL are famous ones (I have no idea if they made copies of this type) or they could be more obscure.
Once again, please try to make better pictures, did you use your camera's macro function?
Most digital cameras can take better pictures than that.

Andreas

[Lloyd Taylor]

This coin looks identical to a coin in the British Museum which can be seen on my web site:
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/babylonia.html

The test cut is even in the same position.

The detail of the reverse is quite different: particularly note the ground line, truncation of legs and tail of lion, linear border between 6h-9h. So it is not a direct copy of the reverse of the BM specimen.

[Reid Goldsborough]

This appears to be a non-silver tourist copy. I have the exact piece here, same flan shape, same centering, same everything. Weigh this piece to be sure. Mine weighs 4.4g, grossly underweight.

In previous decades the British Museum used to provide people with casts of its coins. This is one of the ways Peter Rosa got started. But as has been pointed out, this isn't a die match to the BM piece.