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Author Topic: Roman? dodecahedron  (Read 1037 times)

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Offline Bill W4

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Roman? dodecahedron
« on: January 29, 2023, 02:46:00 pm »
Never knew there was such a thing and maybe not Roman, but it is interesting.  My grandmother would have called it a "thingofmabob"   https://www.livescience.com/roman-dodecahedron-discovered-belgium
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Offline dwarf

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2023, 03:28:18 pm »
A dodekahedron was just offered at auction - the first one ever auctioned.
Fetched around 30.000 GBP, 30 times the estimate

Paywall! - you may have one chance to read!
https://www.antiquestradegazette.com/print-edition/2023/january/2577/auction-reports/dodecahedron-remains-a-mystery/

Regards
Klaus

Offline Molinari

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2023, 03:32:53 pm »
I didn’t realize these were so rare.

Offline Altamura

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2023, 04:12:36 pm »
I didn’t realize these were so rare.
Following Wikipedia there have been found at least 116, so they are not really excessively rare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dodecahedron

But interesting that it is still not really clear what they have been used for :-\.

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Altamura

Offline Jan P

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2023, 04:19:34 pm »
A Roman candle holder for candles of different "brand" or thickness? Sounds reasonable to me. Handy when on trip abroad. An ancient adapter  :laugh:!

Offline dwarf

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2023, 04:46:44 pm »
Quote
But interesting that it is still not really clear what they have been used for :-\.

I still favour the Roman knitting nancy  ;D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spool_knitting

One puzzling and new information for me reading those articles: these objects have only been found in northern Europe - none in the southern or eastern parts of the Roman Empire

regards
Klaus

Offline Bill W4

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2023, 04:53:27 pm »
My wife agrees with the knitting theory and I find it odd that they only turn up in northern Europe.  Not so much Roman I think.  However it took a good bit of skill to make them, whoever did.
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Offline Jan P

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2023, 05:01:38 pm »
Fighting a little bit back: in southern Europe they had olives and so oil for their oil lamps. In the north, they had not.
And, yes I looked it up, candles exist since 500 BC.

Offline Bill W4

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2023, 05:06:59 pm »
I have no idea, but it seems a rather elaborate candle holder for those times.
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Offline Jan P

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2023, 05:45:52 pm »
Well, seeing the first picture underneath, I would have argumented: "And still usable when the wax (or rather, the tallow) was completely dripped inside!"
But the specimen, right on the foreground of the second picture, shoots my idea definitly to pieces, I see  ::).

Offline *Alex

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2023, 05:54:05 pm »
I am going with the siting instrument. I recently saw a very plausible explanation regarding that. The holes on the device are of differing sizes and it seems that when viewing an object of known size through an alignment of two holes a pretty accurate measurement of distance can be ascertained. The theory given was that they may have been some sort of siting device for working out the firing range of weapons such as ballistas. I am in no way any sort of expert on these things but the explanation as described was the most convincing explanation I have seen. However the object on the bottom right of Jan P's picture doesn't appear to have any holes - so the jury is still out.

Alex

Offline dwarf

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2023, 06:24:10 pm »
And here is a picture of the gold dodecahedron found in Myanmar (Burma)
Quite similar, isn't it?

One has to keep in mind two important points, mentioned in Wikipedia
Quote
Several dodecahedra were found in coin hoards, providing evidence that their owners either considered them valuable objects, or believed their only use was connected with coins.
It has also been suggested that they might have been religious artifacts, or even fortune-telling devices. This latter speculation is based on the fact that most of the examples have been found in Gallo-Roman sites.

And last not least: Where are the aliens?  :evil:

Have a good night (here in Germany)
Klaus


Offline Jan P

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2023, 06:49:16 am »
  However it took a good bit of skill to make them, whoever did.
Not so difficult ! It almost costructs itself. Look here:

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2023, 07:17:22 am »
The roman pieces seem to be cast as a single piece, probably a lost wax process in a plaster mold. The protrusions seem designed to ensure the flats aren't resting on surfaces regularly, leading one to believe those surfaces had to be precise for some purpose.

Interesting pieces. Personally I think they were a measurement device of some sort.
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2023, 12:19:26 pm »
These things are fascinating!

The one sold by Wilkinson's seems a less common variety to the extent that the holes on each face appear to all be the same size. On most of these the holes are of significantly different sizes.

The one that appears to have solid faces is actually an icosahedron (20 faces) as opposed to the usual dodecahedron (12 faces). Most of the faces on an icosahedron arn't parallel to opposite faces, but interestingly on this one the two faces that ARE parallel to each other DO have holes in them. Another interesting aspect of this unusual one is that the ball "feet" are all of different sizes.

One dodecahedron has been found where most of the holes are circular, but one pair of opposing openings are elliptical instead.

The size of these things varies quite considerably from about 4cm high to 11cm high (about fist-sized), so if they were a type of measuring device it would seem to have been for a case where standardization wasn't needed.

Another aspect to these is that they have pretty much all been found in Britain or Gaul, so if they were utilitarian it'd seem it was for a use limited to that region.

What comes to mind with the ball feet (which seem an important component - always present, yet adding to the difficulty of manufacture) is that they would have allowed these to stand steady on most reasonably (but not perfectly)  flat surfaces.

I've read one theory that they could have been used to help carve round slingshot projectiles of various sizes, although they do seem a bit elaborate for that. The lack of size standardization, and existence of ones with all equal-size holes would seem to mostly rule out any use as a distance measuring device.

Here's a more typical one showing the different sized holes.


Offline DzikiZdeb

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2024, 10:44:50 am »
Another example found in Lincolnshire. This time one of the larger ones - over 3 inches in diameter:
https://historyfirst.com/mysterious-roman-dodecahedron-is-find-of-a-lifetime/

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2024, 02:05:38 pm »
Another possibility I was thinking of is the holes may once have had inserts made of hide or wood.   It’s possible they were a gaming tool of some sort, like a modern role playing game die.
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2024, 02:17:30 pm »
The most popular internet suggestions seem to be knitting or apprentice metalworker graduation pieces.

The more learned leaning seems to be that they had some cult/ritual use.

I'd like to think that one day someone will figure it out and it'll be so obviously right we'll all smack our foreheads and exclaim "doh!".

In the meantime, these thingies must have cast some interesting and varied shadows. Maybe they came with an interpretation guidebook - an alternative to peering at the chicken's entrails ?

Or mabye they were just a fad - the pet rock of the day ?


Offline SC

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2024, 04:32:45 pm »
Proof the Romans played D&D?

SC
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Offline clueless

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2024, 09:57:47 am »

The more learned leaning seems to be that they had some cult/ritual use.


Isn't this the learned way to say "we do not know"  ;D

Clueless

Offline Justin W

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Re: Roman? dodecahedron
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2024, 12:42:49 pm »
Proof the Romans played D&D?

SC

This is a far more convincing argument then the classic “ritual use” assumption.  ;D

 

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