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Author Topic: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.  (Read 1230 times)

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Offline coldavo

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Hi All,.

Here is a picture of probably the fairly common coin usually described as "Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing".

The normal ending to this description is "holding a wheat sheaf on stalk".

The attached photo seems to show him holding something other than a wheat sheaf and I seem to remember reading in the past that there was a second variety holding something else. My memory is a bit light on for details but I think that it was a Roman ceremonial object (?).

Can anyone give me information on this or is it simply a die pit.

All the best,
Col

Offline JamesC11

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Re: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2022, 08:18:46 am »
Search "Cox 128 Cyprus" on this Discussion Forum.

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Offline coldavo

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Re: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2022, 12:30:46 am »
Hi JamesC11 and Pekka K,

Thank you both for the information. It is much appreciated.

Exactly what I was after - I "remembered" the Roman item held in Zeus hand from years back but couldn't find a reference.

All the very best,
Col

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2022, 08:00:05 am »
The attribution to Cleopatra VII is greatly questioned by many numismatists.  I does make the coins much more saleable.

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2022, 10:07:16 pm »
The attribution to Cleopatra VII is greatly questioned by many numismatists.  I does make the coins much more saleable.

The 'attribution' is indeed fanciful as it has neither a portrait of Cleopatra (as do her own bronze coins) nor any inscription connecting it to any issuing authority whatsoever. Afaik, Ptolemaic coins are known as such from their inscriptions naming 'Ptolemaioy', 'Sotros', or one of the queens (such as Arsinoe or 'Kleopatras'). I'm unaware of any type of anepigraphic type that is considered by numismatists to be a Ptolemaic coin.

Could be a local or other civic issue from around the time of Cleopatra's reign and the figure on the reverse is sometimes called 'Zeus Salaminos'. Fairly common coins found on Cyprus but they suffer from a bit of a knowledge gap - the lack of inscription contributing to that state of affairs.

Coin marketing and numismatics don't always align in parallel. That said, no one can prove it is NOT a Cleopatra issue, either.

PtolemAE

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2022, 07:51:35 am »
Of course, the onus of proof lies with the person who makes an assertion. 

Offline SC

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Re: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2022, 09:31:58 am »
Yes, and no one can prove that Antony and Cleopatra didn't spend this very coin on an espresso whilst wandering around Alexandria one sunny morning. 

There are few absolutes in history.

So instead we have to go on learned knowledge, of which PtolemAE has provided an excellent summary in the case of this coin.

SC

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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2022, 12:48:48 pm »
Coffee is a new world crop, so, no espresso.

But I am confident of the dating of these coins to the time of Cleopatra and Augustus
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Offline SC

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Re: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2022, 03:46:50 pm »
Coffee is not a new world crop.  It is native to Ethiopia and it was already being roasted and brewed by Arabs in Yemen before Columbus' voyage.

However, it was completely unknown in the ancient world.

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Offline JamesC11

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Re: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2022, 07:06:29 pm »
And yet the Roman historian Spurius Nullius Nemo clearly quoted Cleopatra as saying that Marcus Antonius NEVER had s second cup of coffee at home!

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2022, 01:17:11 am »
Of course, the onus of proof lies with the person who makes an assertion.

Indeed. Logicians are fond of noting that they can't prove there's no Santa Claus :)

PtolemAE

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2022, 01:41:31 am »
Coffee is a new world crop, so, no espresso.

But I am confident of the dating of these coins to the time of Cleopatra and Augustus.

The context of archaeological finds of these coins on Cyprus does seem to date them to about that time period. Along with many other coins made near Egypt at that time.

I don't recall if Cyprus was even under Ptolemaic control during Cleopatra's reign. A couple of her forbears had been relegated to rule Cyprus at the end of the 2nd C and tried to fight their way back into control of Alexandria from there. Most of the (formerly extensive) Ptolemaic empire outside Egypt had eroded away during the previous hundred years, absorbed into the growing Roman empire. Antony  'gave' some small Roman territories in the eastern Mediterranean area to Cleopatra and coins with her portrait appeared at some towns outside Egypt. Andrew Meadows has made a pretty good case, however, that some of those (e.g. from Orthoseia) were made in Cleopatra's honor rather than under her authority.

That said, these anepigraphic one-denomination 'Zeus Salaminos' coins don't tell us much about who made them or why. I'm reluctant to tie them to Cleopatra other than by accident of their chronology.

PtolemAE

Offline JamesC11

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Re: Cleopatra VII, AE17 Neopaphos, Cyprus, Mint, head of Zeus, Zeus standing.
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2022, 10:05:55 am »
Ptolemy of Cyprus governed there until 58 B. C. when Marcus Porcius Cato (dispatched by Clodius who hated Ptolemy) arrived to make the island a Roman province leading Ptolemy wisely to take his own life in a timely fashion.  And Caesar, trying to escape the trap of Alexandria in 48, gifted Cyprus to Cleopatra's sister Arsinoe and younger brother (the future Ptolemy XIV), a gift soon withdrawn. 

 

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