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Author Topic: Thompson vs My Demeter & Artemis  (Read 888 times)

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Offline cicerokid

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Thompson vs My Demeter & Artemis
« on: February 15, 2022, 02:48:22 pm »
Well, what do you think?

Same obverse

Same Reverse       = Same coin 1227b

Or is the Obverse NEW
Or is the Reverse NEW  = New Coin

This has big consequences ,

This is really for those with an expert eye ( not necessarily  mine)

HELP PLEASE

NewStyleAmateur
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Offline shanxi

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Re: Thompson vs My Demeter & Artemis
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2022, 03:25:25 pm »
The reverse is IMHO not a die match:

Differences:

- Look on the letters in exerque and their position in relation to the amphora

- The distance between the foot of Artemis an the foot of the owl

- The letters KI  above Artemis are in different positions

- On the left side look for the position of the "ANT" and the position of the leaves of the wreath


Again on the left side: is there an additional letter "I" left of the Σ on the right coin, or is the line part of the wreath ?

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Thompson vs My Demeter & Artemis
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2022, 04:27:54 pm »
Yes thanks for that I also have my6 doubts about the obverse esp the horse protomes.

I wonder if the famous Lotte and marc? Seldon knew or cared. That thing always bothers me about so called collectors...I see it all the time....what's the point?
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Offline djmacdo

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Re: Thompson vs My Demeter & Artemis
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2022, 07:00:10 am »
I am sure the reverse dies are different, and I think the obverse dies too, but so close.  They must be by the same die cutter.  In any event, a really nice coin!

Offline cicerokid

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Demeter-Artemis Coin Comparison
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2022, 07:09:01 am »

As I explained earlier this coin has in Thompson 1961 there are only 3 tetradrachms known and mine apparently is one of them ( the professional buyers of this coin seemed not to have kept records) which Thompson catalogued as T 1229a. Another T 1229a is in other in St Petersburg Sv 73, 15 HAS ANY ONE GOT A COPY OF SVRONOS and like to send me a photograph of the page. that would be kind and useful.
This probable tiny emission looks like a personal issue. The dating though is uncertain other than late post Sullan and I know nothing of Leukios or Antikrates.

The symbol is the tag team of Demeter and Artemis...which one is which?   What and who is the one on the left and what is she holding ( another torch)?  The one on the right I take to be Artemis with the torch in the role as Artemis the light bringer helping Demeter, the first figure? search for persephone in the underworld.
This is a very fine Eleusinian pairing in the style of the two tyrant slayers Harmodius & Aristogeiton issue early post Sullan issue...

I wonder why Lotte & Mark bought it? They seem to have not done any research on it and kept it close since, presumably purchasing it from commerce (who)....Just like the gold eid mar,keeping it private in the collection of what?>  Random coins it seems the only other NewStyle was a Prow issue...no direct relation other being Athens New Style and as common as muck! Not too particular "fine style neither. What did they see when apparently RANDOMLY BUYING. These were clever people from a well off Jewish refugee family highly educated etc.

If anyone knows why they collected as they did please shed a light on them for me.,

Regards,

John aka NewStyleKing, aka Cicerokid

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Offline cicerokid

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Re: Thompson vs My Demeter & Artemis
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2022, 08:11:21 am »



Hi Mac

Yes. Reverse DEFINITE, and the all important OBVERSE   I think it's new too.  Just want some more opinions with better pictures to be surer.
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Offline cicerokid

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More Obverse comparison Thompson vs my Demeter and Artemis
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2022, 08:59:19 am »
#

#Better photo for coin obverse comparison...a NEW OBVERSE? Expert eye needed and opinions
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Offline djmacdo

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Re: More Obverse comparison Thompson vs my Demeter and Artemis
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2022, 09:44:06 am »
Now that looks like the same obverse die to me--it did not before, though.  Who can do that overlay technique?

Offline Altamura

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Re: More Obverse comparison Thompson vs my Demeter and Artemis
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2022, 11:08:11 am »
Thompson 1227b is said to be BMC 437. This is mentioned in the online presentation of the BM: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_GC11p61-437
but unfortunately without a picture :(.

But this coin is pictured in the BMC, and if you are doing the same exercise with this picture, then it looks like below.

I also think that this is a die match.

Regards

Altamura

PS: Why do we need several threads for one and the same coin ???

Offline Altamura

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Re: More Obverse comparison Thompson vs my Demeter and Artemis
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2022, 11:30:40 am »
Some addition:
Svoronos 73/15 (mentioned by Thompson as 1227a) can be found here: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53200205r/f159.item.zoom
see picture below.

Perhaps this is your reverse.

Regards

Altamura

Offline cicerokid

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Re: More Obverse comparison Thompson vs my Demeter and Artemis
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2022, 02:38:32 pm »
Altamura, Thanks for a speedy service,

This is going to be so useful. And keep me in hours of gratuitous speculation!

Regards,

John

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Offline cicerokid

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Re: More Obverse comparison Thompson vs my Demeter and Artemis
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2022, 03:18:14 pm »
Svoronos vs Mine   and   Thompson plate coin T 1227 b    what's the comparison verdict, same  obverse all three,     there should be 2 known reverses in the All three known examples here displayed.

Eagle eyes required please

Mine and Svoronos reverses are the same IMHO.

But I have a sneaking feeling the Obverses don't  all match.
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Offline cicerokid

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all three obverse's of DEMETER ARTEMIS
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2022, 05:39:09 am »
Here are all 3 obverses of all the known examples,Thompson plate LONDON BMC T 1227b,, MINE Commerce T1227a? and Svoronos 73 15. St Petersburg 1227a

What do you think? All the same obverse?

Better eyes needed than my  65 year old ones. We know there are 2 reverses.

I put them in a new post, because they get lost as add-ons in previous ones
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Offline Altamura

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Re: all three obverse's of DEMETER ARTEMIS
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2022, 05:50:34 am »
The sixth thread about one and se same coin ???
I'm losing overview now, sorry, I am out :-\.

Regards

Altamura

Offline cicerokid

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Re: all three obverse's of DEMETER ARTEMIS
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2022, 06:11:23 am »
Hi Altamura,

Sorry about that but little bits in previous threads have not quite been answered, so I make it easier when I post snippets..this is so I can write up this rare coin accurately. The highly educated rich previous owners didn't seem to research it, just like the mythical story concocted by the owners of the Gold Eid Mar who seemed not to know anything about the rarest of rare most famous coin they held. Something without accurate research is all but worthless.

Indeed there are only replies by you and Mac that add anything.
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Offline Kevin D

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Re: Thompson vs My Demeter & Artemis
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2022, 05:14:02 pm »
Better images lead me to believe the same obverse die. I agree with previous posters: the reverse is from a different die.

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Thompson vs My Demeter & Artemis
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2022, 07:00:36 pm »
Thanks, Obv 1 rev 2 The OBV diue most likely, if at all, worked on in contemporary times

john
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Offline Kevin D

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Re: Thompson vs My Demeter & Artemis
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2022, 07:36:49 pm »
John,
I added a better image of the BMC 437 = Thompson 1227 coin to my post above (for ease of side by side comparison). And with it, I need to retract my thought on a possibly reworked die. I don't see signs of reworking now, just the vagaries of a different strike on two coins from the same die. My eyes are old as well, and I wasn't comfortable giving an opinion until now, even though I saw this thread some days ago.

Offline Kevin D

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Re: Thompson vs My Demeter & Artemis
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2022, 02:01:19 pm »
Here is a higher resolution image for the Thompson 1227 Leningrad coin (SV 73x15). I believe this confirms the reverse die match to John's coin. I don't see an obverse die match; it might be a match, but I can't see it from this image.

The Stack's Bowers auction catalog for the Salton Collection Part I mentions the possibility of that Lot (now John's coin) being the Thompson 1227 Commerce 1955 coin. The weights of the two coins are listed as being the same. It would be nice to find an image of the Thompson 1227 Commerce 1955 coin, if one exists.

 

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