Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Encapsulated Coins  (Read 2209 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Encapsulated Coins
« on: August 31, 2021, 12:44:42 am »
Hopefully this is an appropriate place to post this and I don't break any rules, but I am really interested in this question.

A well known reputable auction house has an auction from the Robert W. Bartlett Bequest Sold for the Benefit of the American Numismatic Society. Every single coin I have looked at there is NGC encapsulated and all the NGC tags say ex ANS.

So, did Robert Bartlett have all his coins encapsulated or did ANS send them to NGC prior to consigning them for auction? Given the reputation of ANS, I see no reason why they would need to do that. Maybe to increase perceived value? I don't know. The NGC involvement does not make me want to bid on any of the coins any more than I would if it was just from the Robert W. Bartlett Bequest Sold for the Benefit of the American Numismatic Society. I mean, that is good enough for me. If I get one of these, I will break the case, in any case.

Anyone know?

Thanks,
Virgil

Offline Altamura

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2934
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2021, 02:35:57 am »
... Given the reputation of ANS, I see no reason why they would need to do that. ...
Perhaps they don't trust themselves in their reputation ;)?

On the ANS homepage there isn't any comment about that: http://numismatics.org/bartlett-collection-now-at-auction-to-benefit-the-ans/

... So, did Robert Bartlett have all his coins encapsulated or did ANS send them to NGC prior to consigning them for auction? ...
The latter. On each of the NGC tags you have the ANS logo in the background.

I don't understand why they are participating in this nonsense, perhaps it is really the hope for more money :-\.

Ironically in the current volume of the American Journal of Numismatics there is an article about that encapsulation hype: Heinz Tschachler, "When the Magic Has Gone: Coin Collecting and the Senses", AJN 32, 2020, pp. 413 ff (not available online yet :-\). He tries to shed some light on this movement from a psychological and sociological point of view (Tschachler comes from Austria, the home country of Sigmund Freud :)).

Regards

Altamura

Offline dwarf

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2021, 03:16:50 am »
Either the [DEALER'S AUCTION] photos were made from un-encapsuled coins - or they do a very good job with "photoshoping"

Regards
Klaus

Offline Meepzorp

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 5127
    • Meepzorp's Ancient Coins
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2021, 12:48:14 pm »
Hi folks,

I can't comment on this specific situation because I know nothing about it. However, generally speaking, based on past experience, I don't know how competent some people at ANS are. I don't want to make it look like I am disparaging the ANS as a whole. And, to be perfectly honest, I had only one experience with ANS in my life, and that was about 20 years ago. And you shouldn't base an entire organization's reputation on one experience. But that one experience left me wondering if some people at ANS were severely incompetent and clueless.

About 20 years ago, I was seeking to purchase NOS ("new old stock") SNG ANS volumes. Some (but not all) of those volumes could still be purchased brand new from ANS at that time. I had to purchase my other SNG ANS volumes used from dealers. I have had the complete 5 volume Italy/Sicily set for 20 years now.

When I called ANS 20 years ago, the man I dealt with didn't know what was going on. He didn't even know what reference books I was referring to. He was completely clueless and utterly confused.

Could it be possible that this incident (the slabbed coins) is a result of similar confusion and/or cluelessness and/or incompetence at ANS?

Meepzorp

Offline PMah

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 598
  • Qui risus classe devicta multas ipsi lacrimas...
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2021, 09:37:25 pm »
I am a bit puzzled by most of these comments and mindful that these are being "offered for sale elsewhere", so I won't comment on the coins. 
     However, as an ANS member and frequent visitor, I do know that:
      ANS has nothing to do with grading coins; it is a research institution.  (Don't confuse it with the similar-acronym entity that is a commercial trade organization and makes a big deal about grading.)  Coins offered on the market are graded for the purpose of sale, having nothing to do with their historical or numismatic research value.  The encapsulation company does not guarantee authenticity of ancient coins, so the "competency" of either entity is irrelevant in that respect. The auction house is likely the party that guarantees authenticity, as do all legitimate dealers such as Forum.  (Without going into the "offered for sale elsewhere" issue, I know ANS disclaims grading on direct deaccessions.)
     As to slabbing, well, I don't like them at all myself, but a non-profit institution does have an obligation to try to maximize value when deaccessioning objects, and/or that may have been a condition of the bequest, or just an experiment with a limited number of objects to see if it is worth it.  The "ex-ANS" pedigree would have been on any other dealer's ticket or catalogue.
      As to Meep's comment, well... 20 years ago was ... 20 years ago.  The ANS is not now and was not then a large institution with numerous non-curatorial staffers; there is a good chance your phone call was answered by a custodian (the gentleman who retired in 2020 as facilities manager worked there for 40 years) or a security guard.  I am confident anyone on the curatorial staff would have known what SNG-ANS meant.
   The best way to assess ANS is .... by joining as a member.  Just don't expect them to tell you how much your coin is worth!
Be Well, Stay Healthy, Support your Local Numismatic Club

Paul 

My Gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2021, 09:55:30 pm »
These are some interesting comments. The photos on the auction site are all NGC photos, I believe. At least two of the three are. I also think that NGC may photograph the coins before encapsulating as a record for the person using their services. So, I just assumed all three were NGC photos. One is in the encapsulation and one is the NGC tag. The other is the free coin and larger image. As for the ANS, my experience is very good with them. I watch a lot of their Long Table presentations and have taken two of their Lyceum courses, all of which I have been impressed with. I am not a very experienced collector, so my impression may be naive, but I like them and my rare contacts with them have been good. I do not have that American Journal of Numismatics volume you mention. Sounds like an interesting article. To PMah, I was just surprised that all the coins I looked at in this auction were encapsulated, hence my post. I didn't expect that from ANS if they indeed had them encapsulated. There is an expense in doing that, so part of my question was will this make the prices realized that much higher. It makes no impact on me, for example, the provenance is just fine without it. Plus, as I said, if I get one of these, my hammer will come out as soon as I get it. LOL. And, I assumed that ANS has good folks that would not need a service like NGC.

Regards,
Virgil

Offline Meepzorp

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 5127
    • Meepzorp's Ancient Coins
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2021, 12:55:34 am »
Hi PMah,

Thank you for the explanation. That may explain what happened to me 20 years ago.

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 5127
    • Meepzorp's Ancient Coins
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2021, 01:10:03 am »
Hi folks,

I understand why everyone is confused and/or upset about this slabbing incident. Personally, I also am opposed to slabbing ancient coins. It does nothing for me.

Most ancient coin collectors who are "purists" (and not investors/speculators) are repulsed by slabbed ancient coins. And the ANS is supposedly one of the leading organizations protecting and guarding that intellectual/academic aspect of ancients coin collecting. That is why this slabbing incident is so bewildering. It is as if they went against one of their own basic principles.

And the fact that the encapsulation company doesn't guarantee authenticity makes slabbing all the more useless and wasteful in my mind.

Meepzorp

Offline Altamura

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2934
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2021, 02:58:06 am »
At first: There can be no doubt about the high scientific and organizational level of the ANS. (And to add: I'm a member too :).)

... ANS has nothing to do with grading coins; ...
By putting their logo on the encapsulation tags they have now :-\. This is a statement, perhaps the interpretation is not so easy.


... but a non-profit institution does have an obligation to try to maximize value when deaccessioning objects, and/or that may have been a condition of the bequest ...
Perhaps that's the point. As a nongovernmental institution they have to raise the money they need by themselves, and I think they are quite good in this. But by doing this you often have to decide what's appropriate and what not for not damaging your reputation and not loosing your scientific autonomy. The discussion here shows that they perhaps went a bit too far in this case :-\.


... The best way to assess ANS is .... by joining as a member. ...
I only can recommend that, it's worth it! :)

Regards

Altamura

Offline Kevin D

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2021, 01:08:42 pm »
Quote from: Meepzorp on September 01, 2021, 01:10:03 am
Hi folks,

...Personally, I also am opposed to slabbing ancient coins. It does nothing for me.

Most ancient coin collectors who are "purists" (and not investors/speculators) are repulsed by slabbed ancient coins....
Meepzorp

Thus far, I've removed my slabbed ancients from their NGC holder. However, it is just the holder that I dislike, not NGC's expert opinion of the coin. I value the opinion of the authenticators / graders at NGC. But I also know that as the owner of my coins, I will spend more time studying them than will NGC or the dealer I buy from, and I cannot see and examine the coins to my satisfaction unless I remove them from the slab.

I think there is a good chance that in the future, regarding ancients, there will be an improvement in the 'holders' used by third-party 'graders'. For now, I turn my NGC slabs into 'photo certificates'.

Offline frgreg

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2021, 01:56:18 pm »
I don't know who ordered the slabbing - but this auction company does not slab coins for auction.  They will auction slabbed coins, but most of their auctions, even for much higher value coins - are unslabbed.
The big kid on the block of auction companies almost always has their ancients slabbed.
I have to think (and it is my guess) that ANS was convinced the cost of slabbing and the ex ANS on the slab would be worthwhile.
I know I'm in the minority here, but I prefer my more valuable ancients slabbed.  This is for both for the objective evaluation and for the long term protection of the coin.

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2021, 05:11:53 pm »
In response to a comment or two that NCG provides a useful service whether you like your coins in slabs or not, I have a comment. They do not deal with certifying that a coin is real. To me, that is the only reason I would send a coin to any service like this. So, in theory, they could slab and grade a fake coin. I see absolutely no point in doing this because I am sure one can buy those encapsulation things and do it yourself. That is just my view, I have no problem with anyone who sees value in their service and uses it. It just doesn't give me any additional comfort in buying or bidding on a coin. Ancient coins aren't baseball cards or even stamps. Maybe for modern coins NCG is good, but if they won't even certify a coin as authentic, I would never use them.

Virgil

Offline Kevin D

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2021, 05:47:46 pm »
In response to a comment or two that NCG provides a useful service whether you like your coins in slabs or not, I have a comment. They do not deal with certifying that a coin is real. To me, that is the only reason I would send a coin to any service like this...

My understanding is that you will not get a guarantee against financial loss from NGC, but you will get an assurance that they will do their best to identify fake and altered coins. For myself, their opinions carry significant meaning.

https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ancient-coins/coins-we-grade.aspx
"NGC Ancients will only grade coins it believes to be genuine. Coins considered counterfeit will be returned ungraded with the note, "NOT GENUINE." Also, NGC Ancients will not grade coins if authenticity cannot be ascertained by our staff experts and/or our network of consultants."

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2021, 07:56:45 pm »
Yeah, I get that, it is a CYA on their part. Reminds me of home inspectors. In my last house, trusting the home inspector cost me at least $20K and a house I never would have bought if I had known. And they were covered completely with their contractual caveats, I couldn't even get an inspection fee refund after proving how wrong they were. Seems the NGC thing is the same. If they screw up, you can't hold them responsible. That kind of non-guarantee guarantee just doesn't cut it for me.  To each his own, I am sure they are good most of the time, but if they can't back up those times when they get it wrong, they don't get my money. The house we are in now, I did my own inspection. The sellers and the real estate agent thought that was weird and didn't like it. I am almost sure I never got a better inspection before, though.

Virgil

Offline Kevin D

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2021, 11:07:01 pm »
Virgil,

You have made some good points.

Regarding the home inspection, if I had skills like you apparently do, I would make my own inspection, but then I would also have it inspected by someone who does that for a living, just to get another opinion and see if they found something I missed. A house is a big ticket item and might warrant the extra steps.

Often in the medical world, second and third opinions are sought. An important matter that is good to have a consensus on.

With ancient coins, some seek authentication and opinions from more than one expert. If the coin is valuable, it can make sense.

Yes, CYA, and the different ways companies choose to do this. I think there are many buyers of expensive slabbed ancient coins that don't realize just what the terms are, of the auction house and also NGC. Then there are outfits like Forum that state very plainly their coins are guaranteed authentic, without time limit.

I didn't mean to imply that it is better to buy ancient coins in slabs. All I meant to say is that the people authenticating coins at NGC are, in my opinion, quite good at what they do. Can and do they make mistakes? Yes, it does happen.


Offline Altamura

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2934
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2021, 02:09:49 am »
... Can and do they make mistakes? Yes, it does happen. ...
But it seems that they don't want to take on responsibility for that. That's sad and does not increase confidence :-\. If they themselves don't believe in their capabilities, why should the customers do?

Regards

Altamura

Offline Kevin D

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2021, 02:30:29 am »
I think it is a known certainty that anyone, including NGC, will eventually make some mistakes. With an auction company, I believe the revenue is greater from coin sales, than is the revenue NGC sees from authentication and grading. An auction company might be able to afford the kind of insurance that will cover losses due to forgeries that are discovered after the sale. I'm not sure NGC's revenues from the service they offer would allow for this type of insurance.

I like to buy from companies that will guarantee authenticity, without time limit, whether the coin is in a slab or a flip.

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2021, 09:16:56 pm »
As far as home inspection goes, it isn't that hard to do what a home inspector does. I think there is a belief that they are somehow special in their abilities, but they aren't from my experience and researching about it after my inspector missed so many things that should have been obvious. I think authenticating coins is way harder. LOL. But, seriously, a home inspector will pass an HVAC if it runs and the thermostat works. You have to get an HVAC inspection from a pro if you really want to know about an older system. I guess I am just saying I learned my lesson on trusting and I think there is actually a reality TV show about people's houses falling down after being passed by a home inspector.

I just will not give my business to anyone who will not guarantee their work or make good if they make a mistake. NCG falls into these categories for me. It is an all they win and maybe I win or lose kind of business. Like I said, NCG encapsulation does not make me think a coin is more valuable because of it. I actually won two coins in the auction we are talking about and I am willing to bet ANS did not recoup their expenses on the two I got because the prices I paid were not that high. And I would have bid on them either way because I trust ANS. And I am going to remove them from their holders, but I will keep the tags.

Virgiil

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2021, 07:38:58 pm »
Bumping this thread because I just got the two encapsulated coins from the ANS we were talking about. Coins are beautiful and, I have to admit that the encapsulation has its attractions. I have never actually seen one in-hand before. I am having some second thoughts about removing them from their little prisons. But, I like and want to hold them. And, they will not fit in my collection in such enclosures and I don't want to have to treat these coins differently than my others. They are nice coins, for sure, but not necessarily my best. So, a couple of questions for those who have freed coins.

Do the NGC labels come out easily or are they glued in? Will taking them out of the encapsulation lower their value? Neither coin is close to high value (and ANS probably lost money from having these encapsulated) as far as what I paid for them and I only care as much as my heirs may want to sell my collection at some point.  Does taking them out negate NGC grading, etc? Just curious as to what you all think as I finally have them and want to break their little prisons, but worry I am making some kind of mistake.

Regards,
Virgil

Offline Kevin D

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2021, 11:03:11 pm »
The NGC labels are not glued in and come out very easily. Some buyers want to buy their coins in holders, others do not. I'm not sure how value is effected by putting a coin in a holder or removing it from a holder. If NGC were to be informed that a coin had been removed from one of their holders, they might delete the certification number for that holder from their database. I don't report my coin removals to NGC or PCGS. When I sell a coin that has been removed from the holder, I state this and that the NGC or PCGS 'ticket' is included (I save these).

Some people literally use a hammer (or a vise) to crack and open the holder. I have never tried this method. I use an electric band saw to trim the side and bottom edges of the holder to weaken it (but I leave some of the hard plastic edge on these three sides to prevent 'plastic dust' caused by the band saw's cutting action from ending up on the coin), then on the top edge I cut off the entire hard plastic edge (furthest from the coin so that no 'plastic dust' reaches it). Then from the top I insert a small standard screw driver and 'pop' the holder. I then lift out the insert that holds the coin and label. At this point, simply twisting the insert slightly will often free the coin from the prongs, but I take the additional step of cutting the insert with a small wire cutter to weaken it. Then I gently pull the insert with both hands so that the coin hole expands and the coin drops out.

My procedure is relatively quick and easy, after having done a few removals, and I've never damaged a coin (or even felt I had been close to damaging one). I don't know how many coins I've removed from holders over the years, but it has to be more than 50 (world and ancient). I feel I have good control with this method, but perhaps a better way of doing it will be posted on this thread.

If you can acquire the type of machine that NGC uses to seal and open their holders, that would obviously be an improvement over my method. Still, it only takes me five minutes to safely remove a coin from a holder.


Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2021, 11:14:14 pm »
Kevin,

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it. I do plan to keep the tag and not say anything about it unless I sell the coin and then full disclosure. I don't have a band saw, I was thinking pruning shears or something like that. I will stay as far away from the coin as possible. I appreciate your input.

Regards,
Virgil

Offline Kevin D

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2021, 11:28:46 pm »
Virgil,

Pruning shears scare me, but so does a hammer and a vise. You will want to experiment to develop your own method. When I prep a holder with my band saw, it feels like I am cutting butter. I have to focus and be careful, but I feel I have good control.

Offline Kevin D

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2021, 11:59:16 pm »
With many of the coins I've removed from slabs (holders), I've felt certain the coin was under so much pressure from the slab to be possibly detrimental to the coin in long term storage. I am loading an image with this post that shows pressure cracks in a PCGS holder (the coin is a Bolivian cob), from the coin pressing against the hard plastic window. I've seen much worse cases in both NGC and PCGS slabs.

To date, I've not discovered any coin damage caused by a holder, but I have read and heard reports from others, of this happening.

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2021, 06:17:11 pm »
Hi Kevin D,
Thanks for your responses. That edge damage scares the snot out of me. I will be even more careful. Another reason I found to remove them is that, at least in the case of the two coins I have, they were never weighed. That is impossible to do with them being encapsulated. When I look them up on the NGC site, there are no weights. I also find, as nice as the encapsulations can look, that viewing the coins is much more difficult. You need really good light and even that is subject to glare. And a magnifying glass doesn't work as well. I use a sewing ring lamp with magnifier I stole from my wife, as well as magnifying glasses and a microscope (Pretty rare I use the microscope, but magnifiers I use all the time).

Regards,
Virgil

Offline PMah

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 598
  • Qui risus classe devicta multas ipsi lacrimas...
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2021, 07:20:33 pm »
Drexel motor tool along seam.  Works like a charm.
Be Well, Stay Healthy, Support your Local Numismatic Club

Paul 

My Gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2021, 07:22:55 pm »

Offline Kevin D

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2021, 04:35:30 pm »

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2021, 12:00:58 am »

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Encapsulated Coins
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2021, 07:11:17 pm »

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity