Jesus family

[Numerianus]

I recently followed a TV series on Jesus family. A recent studies seems to confirm that Joseph  had already
4 children: two boys and 2 girls.  Maria gave birth to 3 more boys.  This conclusion was based on a semantic analysis of the names.
It is quite probable that Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus (recall that the Judaism consider that his father was a Roman soldier and this is is unacceptable for the Orhtodox church).  The family supported Jesus strongly.  Since his origin was
derived from the king David, Jesus, indeed, could be a candidate for a throne and the liberator of Judea. This turned bad and he was executed in the presence of the members of the family. I think that the suggested reconstruction is quite plausible.
By the way, in this context the story with the Tribute Penny is far from being innocent since Jesus challenged the official cult of the empire supported by the majority of the Roman population.
The authors conclude that some disciples of Christ were his brothers, in particular, Juda alias Thomas.
Thomas means "twin".  He was not a twin but could have a striking resemblance with Jesus. I think that this fact might explain
the ressurrection enigma.  The body was taken and buried secretly by the family, quite natural event. But how to explain th evidences that  Jesus  was met by someone after his death? Could this person  be Thomas?   

[Robert_Brenchley]

Nothing new there from the sound of it. Mark records four brothers; James, Joseph, Simon and Judas. James and Joseph would have been named after Jacob and Joseph (James is an Anglicisation of a Hellenised form of the name, hence the difference!), and Jesus after Joshua. Judas and Simon are presumably after the Maccabee brothers. Then there are unnamed and unnumbered 'sisters'. There were certainly things said about Jesus' birth by his enemies; there's no knowing whether there's any truth in any of it. The story about the Roman soldier is late but persistent. James dominated the Jerusalem church for a generation until he was killed by the Sadducees in 63, and the family continued to run the show there until (I think) the reign of Trajan.

Thomas certainly means 'twin', but whose twin? We just don't know, that's all speculation, as is the stuff about Jesus paternity. For that matter, despite all the stuff about Mary Magdalene being his wife, and we simply don't know whether he had one or not, she could as easily have been one of the sisters.

[Numerianus]

Of course, there is nothing new here. Basically, the authors pretend to read the evangiles   from the point of view of professional genealogist (who is in the center of the study) and emphasize the role of the family that backed Jesus strongly.  They provide arguments that the name of one of Jesus sisters was Salome  and that she and  Maria served the Cena.  The whole story first was a family business and it seems that you agree with this. The concept that Jesus was the son of the God was deveopped much later.   Probably, it was  a transposition from the newly created Roman  cult  of emperors who were sons of their deified fathers. It is my speculation (which may be completely wrong) as well as the  speculation about the twin.  If Thomas had a strong resemblance with Jesus, this could explain  some events.  The strange coincidence is that Thomas  is claimed to be between those who met Jesus after the surrection and this may have a significance.   

[Cleisthenes]

Nothing new there from the sound of it.

Robert's assessment is correct, and, by-the-by, is there a coin in the near vicinity?  The sub-title of this section is, after all, The stories behind the coins....


Cleisthenes (Jim)

[Robert_Brenchley]

No coins that I know of, but surely we don't have to be that strict about it! I wonder myself whether Thomas (whatever his actual name was!) could have been Jesus' twin, but there's just no evidence, the same as for the actual relationship between him and Mary. No point in profitless speculation. All we can say is for him to have had the nickname 'the Twin', his brother must have been someone prominent. But he could just as easily have been say, James' twin, or Peter's.

[vic9128]

No coins that I know of, but surely we don't have to be that strict about it!

We don't have to be that strict, but it means posts are much more likely candidates for deletion down the road when they have little or no numismatic relevance.

[Numerianus]

I must say  that there is some relevance with ancient numismatics (at least, in my imagination).
The documentary attracted my attention to the role of the emperor cult initiated by August. This cult was
 POPULAR and became more and more popular, even in provinces.  Why?  Coins!  The emperor was omnipresent, his effigie was
 on all coins of the empire. His effigy was on all coins and the novelty  was  that  the legend says explicitly DIVVS or DIVI F.
If we accept that the cult of the emperor  and coins played a role in its propaganda
we can try to re-interprete  certain facts communicated by  evangiles. E.g, the story with Tribute Penny.
Quote from the Forum catalogue :
"Jesus, referring to a "penny" asked, "Whose is this image and superscription?" When told it was Caesar, He said, ''Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's" (Matthew 22:20-21). Since Tiberius was Caesar at the time, this denarius type is attributed by scholars as the "penny" referred to in the Bible."
[Could you imagine that Jesus never saw denarii?]

The usual interpretation of this pasage is:  Pay taxes to Caesar.   That is as an expression of a loyality to Rome.  In the context
of Caesar's  cult and its propagation via images on the coins  this is just a direct challenge (moreover, the words were attribued to Jesus many years later when the problem became  up-to-date). On the other hand, the evangiles tried to avoid confrontation with Rome disculping Pilat and rejecting political ambitions of Jesus.  Combining these facts with a great role playing by the family, one can re-interprete the events related with crusification.  They are quite logical and consistent. 

[Varangian]

[Robert's assessment is correct, and, by-the-by, is there a coin in the near vicinity?  The sub-title of this section is, after all, The stories behind the coins....


Cleisthenes (Jim)

By the way, in this context the story with the Tribute Penny is far from being innocent since Jesus challenged the official cult of the empire supported by the majority of the Roman population.

Sounds like discussion of the history behind a certain type of denarius to me...

[Robert_Brenchley]

Actually that story can equally well be interpreted as meaning that the Jews should have nothing to do with Caesar and his coinage! Deuteronomy 17:14 forbids the Israelites to appoint a foreign king. It all depends how the Law is interpreted. If we can take Josephus at face value, there was some sort of movement founded by Judas the Galilean, probably among the Pharisees, which 'would suffer no lord or king save God'. It's very hard to understand that except in the context of the ban on foreign kings, and such a movement might very easily have taken the view that to accept Caesar as king was to deny God his proper obedience. So 'rendering unto God' to them would have meant getting rid of Caesar and all his works. As, of course, they eventually tried to do.

[Cleisthenes]

[Robert's assessment is correct, and, by-the-by, is there a coin in the near vicinity?  The sub-title of this section is, after all, The stories behind the coins....


Cleisthenes (Jim)

By the way, in this context the story with the Tribute Penny is far from being innocent since Jesus challenged the official cult of the empire supported by the majority of the Roman population.

Sounds like discussion of the history behind a certain type of denarius to me...

No coins that I know of, but surely we don't have to be that strict about it!

Points well taken!
Cleisthenes (Jim)

[basemetal]

Another point to add and I hope since this is religion-based, I do not offend anyone.

Though the Apostoles traveled widely, Jesus's family probably remained "at home" in or in the vicintiy of Jerusalem.  Villages within 25 miles included.   Long about 70 A.D. there came a great upheaval.  The descendants/relatives  of Jesus were likely enslaved or killed in the revolt.  The original goals or the original bent of Jesus's teachings may have perished during that time. We have extant the teachings of Jesus and then, those of his Apostles.  Who exactly parrots the teachings of a teacher? No good student does. 
There is some evidence (unattributed sorry) that Jesus wanted his version of things to be in closer synch with the teaching of the Jewish majority. Circumscision for one.
Like it or not, Jesus was part of an extended family and all that implies in the 1st century A.D. 
Whether from god or not, his human side certainly was influenced by his temporal relatives.

[Cleisthenes]

Another point to add and I hope since this is religion-based, I do not offend anyone.

Though the Apostles traveled widely, Jesus's family probably remained "at home" in or in the vicinity of Jerusalem.  Villages within 25 miles included.   Long about 70 A.D. there came a great upheaval.  The descendants/relatives  of Jesus were likely enslaved or killed in the revolt.  The original goals or the original bent of Jesus's teachings may have perished during that time. We have extant the teachings of Jesus and then, those of his Apostles.  Who exactly parrots the teachings of a teacher? No good student does. 
There is some evidence (unattributed sorry) that Jesus wanted his version of things to be in closer synch with the teaching of the Jewish majority. Circumscision for one.
Like it or not, Jesus was part of an extended family and all that implies in the 1st century A.D. 
Whether from god or not, his human side certainly was influenced by his temporal relatives.

Very interesting point.  This well known conflict in the early Church existed between those Christians who wanted to remain close/closer to traditional (a tough term to define) Jewish beliefs, led by James (known as the brother of the Lord)--and those Christians more "Helenized," led by Paul (one of his epithets is "Apostle to the Gentiles").  It is interesting to note, though I'd defer to Robert in this area because of his Pauline expertise, that the earliest Christian texts (i.e., those written in closest temporal proximity to Christ) are in fact attributed to Paul, and he discusses these issues (i.e., circumcision) in Galatians 2:9.  There was a significant council in Jerusalem in 51 A.D. where many of the conflicts between these "factions" were resolved (Acts 15:13).  But, I am not suggesting that smooth sailing ensued.  The history of the early Church is incredibly interesting because of its complexity and conflict and because of what still remains a bit of a mystery.

I think that Victor was probably correct in that our thread needs to be numismaticaly relevant, so I am including the image of one of my favorite Byzantine coins:

Constantine VII, 913-959, Gold Solidus, Sear-1750, DOC-14, struck 945-947 at Constantinople, 4.38 grams, 20 mm.

Obv: IHS XPS REX REGNANTIUM - Christ enthroned facing, with small, well modelled head; wearing nimbus cruciger, pallium and colobium; and raising right hand in benediction and holding the Book of Gospels in his left hand; the throne has curved arms ornamented with pearls.
Rev: CONSTANT CE ROMAN AVGG BR - Facing busts of Constantine VII, with short beard on left and Romanus II, beardless on right, both crowned and holding between them a long patriarchal cross; Constantine wears loros; Romanus wears chlamys.


Jim (Cleisthenes)

[Robert_Brenchley]

There may have been a council in Jerusalem, but the problem is that luke's account in Acts 15 is rather difficult to reconcile with Paul's acount of his own travels to the city in Galatians 2. The interesting thing is that James' decision in Acts is pretty much in line with the Rabinnical position which emerged during the 2nd Century; Gentiles can be righteous and acceptable before God on the basis of obedience to a few basic commandments. Luke doesn't tell us where they come from, but the Rabbis held that they were given to all humanity through Noah, while the commandments of Moses were only given to the Jews.

Jesus' family, or some of them anyway, survived the First Revolt; Vespasian appearently began a concerted attempt to exterminate the descendants of David after the Revolt, suggesting that one or more of the war leaders may have claimed descent from him. Domitian continued this policy, and Hegesippus says that the grandsons of Jesus' brother Judas were brought before him, but 'dismissed with contempt'. Presumably this was because they were poor peasants (though they owned their own land, and were thus better off than many), and because they insisted that 'Christ's kingdom was not of this world'.

[basemetal]

Cleisthenes:
On a lighter note.  Wow!  I was wrong all those auction sites that advertise "Coins with Portrait of Jesus Found!" were right and here I was foolishly excluding them from my searches!

Since it involves religious beliefs, I'll be quite clear-kidding-a joke-those sites are despicable through misuse of the truth.

[Cleisthenes]

Cleisthenes:
On a lighter note.  Wow!  I was wrong all those auction sites that advertise "Coins with Portrait of Jesus Found!" were right and here I was foolishly excluding them from my searches!

Since it involves religious beliefs, I'll be quite clear-kidding-a joke-those sites are despicable through misuse of the truth.

Basemetal,

You're the best!   You know, the more we (as in FORVMites) interact on the net I can't help thinking that it would be so cool to organize a FORVM Coin Conference.  The first one doesn't need to be too complicated: pick a time and place and invite everyone.  Just a thought.

Take care,

Jim (Cleisthenes)