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Author Topic: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?  (Read 884 times)

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Offline Virgil H

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Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« on: November 18, 2022, 01:43:27 am »
In my quest to find particular coins from medieval Afghanistan, I have come across an interesting coin usually called Western Turks, Sandan. Usually it is listed as an unknown mint in Bactria. I have also seen Sandan as directly related to Kabul and/or Zabul. My searches for history are ongoing, but confusing. The only thing outside of coin listings that I can find is a mention of a Turk Shahi king named Sandan otherwise unknown. I do not find a Sandan listed as a Turki king/shahi for any period covered by Zaid in his book on Sakra votive coins of Gandhara. And Gandhara was within the area of Kabul and other areas of present day Afghanistan during that time period (after 688 AD).

So, I am confused and wonder if a scholar here can help. The coin in question is Vondrovec Type 244. I do not have that book.

For my purposes, all that is needed are the legends, which are as follows:

Obverse: Brahmi legend: sri candana vakhudevah (“His Perfection Candana, Lord of the Oxus”)
Bactrian (outside) legend: “His Perfection, the Lord, the Chiliarch Sandano, His Perfection, the Lord”
Reverse Bactrian legend: “His Perfection, the Lord, his Majesty, the Bactrian Kagan, his Perfection, the Lord”
Pahlavi: “increase”…”from Glory..”

Yet this is always called a Sandan coin. I suppose this may not refer to a king, but is some old convention someone used from the legend. But, if this were a king's coin, wouldn't it be Candana, Lord of the Oxus? Then I discovered that Candana has a huge number of definitions all related to eastern religions, including Gods. Based on my knowledge of what a Chiliarch is, it would appear Sandano (presumably Sandan) is a commander of 1,000 troops. Complicating things is that Kagan appears to refer to a central authority, such as a king/shahi.

So, maybe Candana is a recognition of the divine and Sandano is the shahi who commands the army and is the Kagan. Maybe all three legends are about the same person or at least two of them. One thing for me is that the Turks Shahis were a branch of the Western Turks and, while there entire geographical range is more or less within my interest area, I would prefer coins that are as close to Kabul/Kapisa/Zabul as possible. From what I can tell, this coin type fits that desire. The Western Turk coins are also rare and this one seems to be the most common.

Finally, and I think I am off base here, but the reverse of these and the Nezak Shahi coins, as well as many others in the east, have fire altars. The God Sandan of Hellenic fame was a lion god that used a fire altar. This was a major god in Cilicia (I have one with the altar from Tarsos). I was wondering if this Sandan has any relation to the Turks Shahi Sandan. Probably a big stretch, but the religions the Greek and Roman worlds moved east until at least some point during the later Roman Empire. Plus the Parthian, Sassasiniain, Indian, Chinese, and Persian influences. I thought I would throw the idea out there.

Hope I made sense,

Virgil

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2022, 06:28:15 am »
A couple of pictures added to your text would make it easier digestible, Virgil.
To my humble opinion, in general, there are to many texts on the forum of as well questions as solutions, without picture.
A picture makes the message accessible to every reader, where a naked text will only address the concerned.
I plead for a more instructive forum by the use of pictures more often.
(Sorry, that I write the above on this occasion in your topic, Virgil  ;)).

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2022, 08:18:06 am »
Hi Jan,
I agree photos are good. On this inquiry, I didn't think a photo was needed, but I will attach one in case it helps. The thing that confuses me a little is that nothing seems to be known about this particular Shahi, Sandan. Which led me to think maybe it was something else.

Thanks,
Virgil

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2022, 08:43:23 am »
Hey Virgil,
What a wonderful piece ! The first impression it made on me was: "Nezak Huns".
But with its different scripts it is quite something special. I see this for the first time.
I am glad you added this picture and ... yes, it brings this topic very much to life !
I think most of us say: "Hey, what is this  :o !".

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2022, 08:48:19 am »
Yes, the Turki Shahis replaced the Nezaks and used many elements of Nezak coins.

Thanks,
Virgil

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2022, 09:38:50 am »
Hey Virgil, by your picture I got interested in the coin, so meanwhile I looked among the Nezaks and found this, which puzzled me.
Maybe the picture you posted is not exactly the one of the coin, your first message is talking about or ...
The legends of both coins underneath, in Brahmi on the obverse and in Pahlavi on the reverse, are the same. The Brahmi seams to say "Vajara", not "Candana".
Yes, as a complete outsider, would I not better stay out of this topic? But I am interested in scripts and I thought: Hé ...

ATTENTION ! I made a mistake here in the second picture.
See for the correction "Reply#10" underneath.

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2022, 10:05:14 am »
I appreciate your input. I am no expert on these and am trying to learn. I have to leave for the day in a few minutes and will be back this evening (my time US EST) and will look at this closely. The Zaid book is helpful to some extent with these, including Nezak, but I wish I had Vondrovec. Thank you for posting this and I just wanted to let you know I am not ignoring you but will respond later.

Thanks,
Virgil

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2022, 12:33:20 pm »
I live six hours earlier, so your evening is my night.
At my turn I 'll probably not be able to answer promptly after you post your next message.
I just want you to know  ;).

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2022, 12:36:45 am »
Hi Jan,
Thanks for that and I appreciate the politeness we have on this board. I had a long day and am getting ready to travel for the US Thanksgiving holiday, which is a big family holiday in the US. I will respond, but it may be a couple of days or more. Just wanted to let you know, seriously. I don't want to clog up the forum with messages that don't say much, but like I said, I do not like to let people hang waiting and people here are polite that way, as you were with me.

I will respond. This is not a topic I can just throw out responses to, the more I think about it, the more I consider various different things.

Anyone else with comments, please feel free to join in.

Take care,
Virgil

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2022, 04:00:42 am »
Okido, Virgil.
Take your time and when you post an answer, I 'll see it.

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2022, 07:02:49 am »
In my hasty answer in "Reply#5" here, I made a mistake I want to correct before somebody shoots me here:
At the coin, I circled in orange "shree Va" and I sold it for "Vajara".

How could that happen?
I based my hurried parsing of the legend on the "Va" in Vajara and the beginning and end-"Va" of Vakhudeva.
And I forgot that, unlike Kharosthi, Brahmi is running left to right.

This being said, keep in mind that there is a great difference between Brahmi and Brahmi, from before our era to this Brahmi of the eight century the script has taken a serious evolution. No better witnesses than coins for this  ;) !

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2022, 02:56:47 pm »
Wow ! What a discord, what a muddle  :o !
I went on the search of "Turk Shahi Sandan" on the www and ... yes, I fell on the coin of our topic:

Bactrianumis shows the coin commented with the exact description given by Virgil in his start message and the same comment is shown on Coinarchives' pieces from Web Auction.
Acsearch.info on their coin of Roma Numismatics does not mention Sandan but Shah Tigin.
Commons.wikimedia shows in a series of 20 coins, three times the same coin, yes ours ! : Nr 3 as Tegin Shah (Turk Shahi), Nr 8 as Shahi Tegin (Nezak Huns) and Nr 14 as Turk Shahis, Sandan ...
Unbelievable what a mess ...

Moneta Gallery, on which I fell just before my first message in this topic, gives Vajara Vasudeva as sub-ruler of Shahi Tigin.
I think, their point of view is backed by the coins' legend: "Shree Vajara Vakhudeva".

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2022, 06:54:41 pm »
I am bringing the books I have on my travels that start tomorrow morning, so will have, hopefully, something more useful to say in a few days. But, yeah, this does seem a big muddle, which is a reason why I posted in the first place. LOL. I am going to try to get ANS to photocopy the Vondrovec section on the Sandan coins, there is a subsection on them. ANS offers a photocopy service and I am hoping they can copy a copyrighted book section for non-profit (private) use. I will find out, but it is a holiday week in US. I think that will shed some light on the matter. I may also ask Dr Zaid, who wrote the book I have mentioned before and who I have been in touch with before and who is happy to speak with a lay person like me. Very friendly guy. But I don't want to bother him until I have done as much research as I can beforehand.

Another interesting thing about these coins is that many have holes that seem to have been filled with gold. They are small holes and many are now empty, but I have seen some examples that still had the gold. There are others with some crazy and disfiguring countermarks. I want to find out about this. It seems to be an official thing. The coin photo I posted has one of these small holes. This has nothing to do with my original post, but it something I noticed.

Cheers,
Virgil

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2022, 06:10:32 am »
Well yes, I try to keep this topic warm, until Virgil returns with his answers from Dr. Zaid about Sandan.
In my last message, I stood after "Moneta Gallery" where they read the Brahmi legend as "Sri Vajara Vakhudeva". But then again not, when they show the coin under the title "Nezak Huns". With Virgil, I think this is a Turk Shahi coin. Why?
Because of the gold plug, the Brahmi script legend next to the kings' head and the lion's head that replaces the Nezaks' bull skull on top of the crown.

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2022, 05:21:23 pm »
Finally returning to this topic after a nice Thanksgiving trip to visit relatives in Texas and a return home to have gall bladder surgery (that went very well). Then, I had hoped to post the photo attached to this post as the newest addition to my collection, but someone else wanted it more than I did. Oh well, there will be more as this Type 244 appears to be (or one of) the most common coins of the Western Turks.

As I stated when I posted, my concern was finding coins minted in or near present day Afghanistan. All of the empires and kingdoms that have controlled parts of this area have included wider areas, including Bactria, Gandhara, Iran, etc. Just before the coin went up for the final auction, the ANS was kind enough to send me a few pages from the Vondrovec book that discuss Type 244. Based on this, the coin falls into my collecting area. Also, as an aside, what I saw of the book makes me really want my own copy of this two volume work. And I really do not want to settle for the digital version (that is quite expensive on its own, but at least available).

As Jan has mentioned, just this one coin is quite complicated and confusing, but Vondrovec clears a lot up for me. I am just going to let Vondrovec speak here. I will say, I may have been on at least a reasonable track with my thoughts on the commander of a chilliarch. Also, all the ones I have seen had countermarks and gold plugs, including the coin attached here. This also explains why these coins are dated as they are (as after 688 AD).

Note that the depictions of the various legends/languages in the excerpt below are not accurate.

Section 9.1.10 Sandan
Drachms of Type 244 are very numerous. Of high quality silver, with no billon specimens known to me, their overall appearance - size, manufacture and basic typology- suggests that they were intended to circulate alongside Sasanian and Arab-Sasanian drachms.

The ruler's crown is surmounted by a lion's head on asymmetrical pair of wings; no details of their actual attachment are visible, but we may assume that they were modeled after the wings of Khusro II (r. 591-628) which became canonical on Sasanian and Arab-Sasanian coinage. Below the wings and attached to the diadem are two crescents, each containing a large dot or globe. The reverse shows a slender fire altar, its ribbons floating upwards, and two attendants with characteristic crescent-shaped headdresses standing to either side. Again, the double margin provides the only absolute chronological terminus post quem of 688 CE.

Type 244 is a trilingual issue, indicating a multilingual area of circulation. The obverse bears legends in Brahmi and Bactrian. The Brahmi obverse legend Sri candāna vakhudevah is to be read from right to left, translated by Falk as "His Perfection, Candana, Lord of the Oxus." This gives us another reason for locating the production of Type 244 in Bactria.

The Bactrian legends outside the margins of both sides have long been disputed. On the obverse, the legend is opt Bayo aÇpoß88iyo gavdavo Bayo xos8no ("His Perfection, the Lord, Commander Sandan , King, the Lord"). According to Sims-Williams, Az(o)robadigo might be derived from chiliarch (a commander of 1,000 soldiers) whereas Sandan is a personal name. [See Footnote 694 below]

The reverse has two Pahlavi legends: in the left field 'pzwn' ("increase") and in the right pwn GDH... (“from Glory"... the last word is unclear). The Bactrian legend at the outer rim of the reverse reads opt Bayo d§no B кауао opi Bayi (“His Perfection, the Lord Ddebo, the Bactrian khagan, His Perfection, the Lord"). The translation of Bays§tyyo kayavo as "khagan of Balkh" has recently been suggested by La Vaissière and is accepted by Sims-Williams. La Vaissière has also proposed that Type 244 was issued by Pangul, which I cannot entirely follow. However such details as a Bactrian legend between the margins, are shared by Pangul's coins and Sandan's.

Both the Brahmi title vakhudevah ("Lord of the Oxus") and the Bactrian title Bay§§yo kayavo ("Khagan of Bactria") enable us to locate this issue in Bactria. As we have already seen on the coins of the Yabghu (chapter 9.1.7), there can be contradicting geographic information; however, everything about Type 244 seems to point to production in Bactria. And yet we must be extra careful with this line of argument. In the case of Pangul's Type 245, the same epithet Bays&Lo ("of Balkh") does not provide sufficient evidence for locating this issue in Bactria as his other coin-types bear the mint signatures of Zabulistan and Rakhvad (chapter 9.1.12).

Footnote 694: Sims-Wiliams 2010: 124 claims that Sandan was a"Turk Shahi" ruler and refers to Xiaohe Ma, who "identifies oavSavo with Zhantan, who was named in 762 CE as younger brother of the king of Jibin, which may well be correct as regards the name but hardly as regards the individual." Cf. Xiaohe Ma, unpublished paper distributed at the conference "Ancient Coins and the Culture of the Silk Road," Shanghai 2006, which is apparently the article Xiaohe 2012, published entirely in Chinese.

Me again. I find this a fascinating deep dive into one particular coin type that has and remains a fun exercise. I will be continuing my quest for this coin (and others) as an example of the Western Turki Shahis.

Cheers,
Virgil

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2022, 08:01:33 am »
I have the feeling, we are back at square one here.
I do not challenge Vondrovec, but I still have some doubts about the way de Brahmic words are translated.
Just have a look underneath and tell me where I go off the rails:
(For identifying the Brahmic letters on this coin, we can not compare with the Brahmic on Western Satrap coins, because to far evolved.
Punjabi Sanskrit seems to be near to the Brahmic used by these Bactrians, at least for "SHRI").

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2022, 02:33:52 pm »
"Type 244 is a trilingual issue, indicating a multilingual area of circulation. The obverse bears legends in Brahmi and Bactrian. The Brahmi obverse legend Sri candāna vakhudevah is to be read from right to lef t."

Wait a minute ... "to be read from right to left", Vondrovec may mean by that: read first the word at the right, then the word at the left. But Brahmi runs left to right and so it does on our coin.

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2022, 09:54:26 pm »
Jan,
Great comments and this is where I cannot really contribute as you can to the discussion. I cannot read any of the languages other than following along as writers discuss them. Your knowledge of the languages is impressive. The more I look into these "Turk Shahi" coins, the more I realize how little I know. I think I will still bother Dr. Zaid with an email once I figure out what to ask.

In the meantime, I found this interesting Vondrovec article from, I believe, 2004, so it is probably outdated to some degree. Still interesting as it discusses coins from Gharwal, which is east of Ghazni in Afghanistan and it is interesting because it covers coins from there that encompass 2nd/3rd century Kushan and ends with Turki coins of the 8th century. An interesting slice and he heavily discusses Type 243. Type 244 is not mentioned, but I thought I would paste in this link as it mentions some of the problems with identifying precisely what some of these coins are.

https://www.academia.edu/880245/Coins_From_Gharwal_Afghanistan

Virgil

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2022, 10:39:38 am »
Impressive article. Sure, Vondrovec is an authority on those Bactrian coins, without doubt.
That is why I would like to be able to follow what he is explaining about the legends.
The difficulty is, the letters of the "Brahmi" on our coin are so difficult to find elsewhere.
Wikipedia says, the Brahmi from before our era knew very little changes until the second century AD. The Gupta script of the fifth century is called "late Brahmi", which knew already many varieties. With our coin, we are in the 8th century! So, we'd better speak about "Brahmic script", rather than "Brahmi".

On screen here, I mentioned something that is easy to verify, also by those who are not very interested in the whole thing, but there is more:

When I at first saw the legend: "Shri Vajara Vakhudevah" (or "Sri Candana Vakhudevah", as Vondrovec says), I thought: Hé, should that not have been "Vasudeva".
The Hindu-god Vasudeva was very well known in Bactria as a picture here underneath shows us. But there was written Va-KHU-devah  :-\.
Then I found, the Oxus' local name was "VAKHSH". So,"Lord of the Oxus", good, but then a "SH" was missing. It should have been Vakhshudeva, but there was written Va-KHU-devah  :-\.
Was it ? Well, see the pictures underneath.
And so, there is stuff to keep searching ...

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2022, 07:44:00 am »
By further search on Bramic scripts and deciphering the Bramic inscription of our coin (see underneath), I certainly do not want the title of this topic to be overlooked.
Me too, I got interested on finding Sandan, but there seems to be very little to find, that leads towards him.
Could it be, the word "gavdavo" in the Bactrian legend of this one coin (see Virgils Reply#14), is the only trace that must proof his existance?
I am now searching for other traces.
Virgil, did you find some?

Offline Jan P

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Re: Sandan: Is He a Turki Shahi, Military Commander, or a God?
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2022, 01:19:38 pm »
This book with names of Iranian and Bactrian rulers points only to one coin that possibly mentions Sandan, with these words:

BACTRIAN PERSONAL NAMES 1. [ m.: B BD2, ja2f, 13

https://www.austriaca.at › ...

"Sandan, a “Turk Shahi” ruler. Possibly to be identified with a ruler whose name is written in Pahl. script as cnd'n on Km 43, 49 (read thus by.

 

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