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Author Topic: Coin shows Cleopatra's ugly truth  (Read 3164 times)

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Offline Vladislav D

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Coin shows Cleopatra's ugly truth
« on: January 17, 2013, 05:19:20 pm »
Antony and Cleopatra, one of history's most romantic couples, were not the great beauties that Hollywood would have us believe, academics have said : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tyne/6357311.stm

Offline Mark Z

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Re: Coin shows Cleopatra's ugly truth
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 05:31:42 pm »
Vlad,

Yes, it's a fairly well-accepted fact that Cleo was not the hottest-looking honey in town.

However, having money, fame and power can work both ways when it comes to attracting the opposite sex, and she had it all.

Marc Antony also had a somewhat brutish appearance as noted in the story but that didn't stop him from almost making it to the top.

Regards,
mz

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Coin shows Cleopatra's ugly truth
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2013, 09:54:44 pm »
Yes ,  there has been some debate as to her appearance , with some authors claiming she was a woman of immense beauty, while others suggesting she was short, frumpy and plain . I don't know if you can make a real portrait of the person from the image on the coin . Egyptologist Sally Ann Ashton, brings together images from ancient artifacts and developed computer 3D-image of Cleopatra.     http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1095043/Sorry-Liz-THIS-real-face-Cleopatra.html

or this one "The New Face of Cleopatra (Photoshop Reconstruction) "  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrJT8n7e7-I and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k529hZrAnkI

Offline cliff_marsland

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Re: Coin shows Cleopatra's ugly truth
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2013, 03:29:36 am »
That's a rather...imaginative reconstruction of Cleopatra.  It's kind of like making a likeness of  Libius Severus from a 7 mm. nummus.

Coins from different mints of Cleopatra were pretty clear on what she looked like.

However, she was intelligent and her country was the richest plum of all for picking.  That would make up for any lack of physical beauty.

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Coin shows Cleopatra's ugly truth
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2013, 04:51:08 am »
Beauty is all in the eye of the beholder and modern politics, as ancient politics, is replete with examples of rather "ordinary" specimens of humanity that are deemed to be amongst the beautiful people due to the "eye enhancing" effects of a huge bank account accompanied by big lashings of power.  Nothing has changed since the days of Cleopatra and Antony and the modern Italians seem just as prone to the beautifying effects of power and money as their ancient predecessors. It appears that the authors of the article are just as blind to the reality of the ancient world as they are to the modern.  

Offline gallienus1

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Re: Coin shows Cleopatra's ugly truth
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2013, 05:59:58 am »
The black silver sulfide patina has stuck to the corner of her mouth making her look rather more unattractive than a coin in good condition would otherwise show her. Coin portraits have to exaggerate the facial features of the subject slightly to make them recognizable on such a small scale. Great skill is required of the artist to keep the portrait as close to natural in appearance as possible without falling into caricature.

I think we should be careful in judgments about a woman’s beauty from her image on a coin. The female face is finer in form than the male; the slight exaggerations needed in a coin portrait can tip an attractive woman’s face toward being plain and a plain woman’s face into being unattractive. Of course as has been said wealth and power as well as the character, intelligence and empathy a person has are vital ingredients in determining how “attractive” a person really is. Cleopatra clearly had these qualities in abundance.

To quote Plutarch, “For her actual beauty, it is said, was not in itself so remarkable that none could be compared with her, or that no one could see her without being struck by it, but the contact of her presence, if you lived with her, was irresistible; the attraction of her person, joining with the charm of her conversation, and the character that attended all she said or did, was something bewitching. It was a pleasure merely to hear the sound of her voice, with which, like an instrument of many strings, she could pass from one language to another; so that there were few of the barbarian nations that she answered by an interpreter-“

Best Regards,
Steve

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Coin shows Cleopatra's ugly truth
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2013, 08:50:08 am »
Beauty is partially in the eye of the beholder, but in different climates and economic conditions perfect beauty may take different forms. Beauty is often a shorthand word to indicate "will make very healthy babies". Symmetricality is of course important, indicating good genes. That can hardly be shown on coins showing one side of the face , neither can skin quality, a key indicator of health and beauty. Although there are perhaps extremes such as Leopold the Hogmouth that would not be considered beautiful in any culture! Some of the factors discussed on this thread such as the dear lady's nose shape may be neither here nor there (so long as symmetry exists) or it may even be that we are searching for characteristics of beauty that are suitable for cold northern climates (little button noses that won't suck in too much cold air) and not suitable for hot humid and dusty climates (effective filtering by frontal features typical of the middle east, or indeed of the classic Roman conk). If these features are combined with beautiful skin and symmetricality then they add up to a very healthy look, and hence beauty. Of course a little roll of healthy spare tire adds to the beauty too, nourishing in famine or in childbearing. So, not only are our (generally cold-climate based) views of beauty a matter of the eye of the beholder, but some of our view of beauty may in fact be indicators of poor health and thus ugliness to the ancient egyptians.

Offline OldMoney

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Re: Coin shows Cleopatra's ugly truth
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2013, 06:58:24 am »
On the subject of Cleopatra's portraits and coins, may I be so bold
as to suggest an article of mine in the Celator from a few years ago:

Portraits of Cleopatra (by Walter C. Holt)
The Celator, 22.5 (May 2008), pp. 6-22, illustrated.
This article illustrates the many an varied portraits on coins of this
alluring and enigmatic ruler.
(another version was published in the Australian Coin & Banknote
Magazine, also by this same title: Portraits of Cleopatra. CAB, 10.11
{December 2007/January 2008}, pp. 34-38, illustrated
).

Walter Holt
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Coin shows Cleopatra's ugly truth
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2013, 07:11:18 pm »
Let's not forget that Cleopatra was the procuct of two and one half centruries of incest and inbreeding.  

Brotherly sisterly love/union hardly makes for a happy outcome, let alone when perpetuated for around twelve generations. One seriously has to question the basis of the glowing romantic descriptions , even those of the ancient sources under such circumstances. Just look at the glowing media reports of many wealthy and powerful today to see the dynamics involved in this sort of writing - belied by the evidence of our eyes and ears its hardly warts and all desription of reality, yet we treat the ancient sources on this subject as something different, something more objective and reflective of the reality of the pwoerful of the time (did someone say of with the author's head!). The miracle of Cleopatra and the Ptolemaic Dynasty is that it all didn't go awry from inbreeding much earlier.

For a more scholarly analysis of the issue FamiliarityBreads: Incest and the Ptolemaic Dynasty. in Journal of Hellenic studies 125 (2005) 1-34 and The Power of Excess: Royal Incest and the Prolemaic Dynasty in Anthropologica 48 (2006) 165-186.
A less scholarly but more accessible summary: http://www.stephaniedray.com/2012/01/12/keeping-it-in-the-ptolemaic-family-when-incest-is-best/

 

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