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Author Topic: Barbarian Votive?  (Read 3171 times)

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Massanutten

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Barbarian Votive?
« on: December 13, 2004, 06:40:18 pm »
  This one is on it's way to me, so I am attaching the dealer's pic.  The reverse sorta, kinda, could be, reminds me of some of the 4th century votives that did not use a wreath.  
   As an aside, the obverse portrait reminds me of someone..... maybe from a comic strip??
    In any case, I've seen quite a few barbs, but this is the first time I've seen this one.  Anybody seen one similar to this?
Best regards, Bob

Offline wolfgang336

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Re:Barbarian Votive?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2004, 06:47:50 pm »
Very nice! Yep that's definitely barbaric, and I think there's a few similar ones in the Gallery.

Evan

Offline whitetd49

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Re:Barbarian Votive?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2004, 06:50:13 pm »
These barbs are fascinating.  The barbarian celators often showed reasonable skill with portraits as here, but their spelling!  In this case, it appears that the celator just scattered letters willy-nilly over the reverse.
If you watch long enough, even a treefrog is interesting.  Umberto Eco
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Massanutten

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Re:Barbarian Votive?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2004, 06:50:43 pm »
Evan,
    Where in the gallery?
Bob

Offline newone

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Re:Barbarian Votive?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2004, 06:51:11 pm »
 :)Nice Barb! I like the new reverse styling! ;D
May our troops return home safely.........only through their bravery, dedication and diligence are we able to freely post on this site.

Offline wolfgang336

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Re:Barbarian Votive?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2004, 07:11:22 pm »


Here you are Bob!

Evan

Massanutten

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Re:Barbarian Votive?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2004, 07:33:39 pm »
Thanks!  Should have known to look there.  That's where I'll post this one when I get it.
Best regards, Bob
(fyi for the casual visiter:  Ancient Counterfeits and Barbarous Imitations section of the Member's Gallery).

Massanutten

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Re:Barbarian Votive?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2004, 07:51:26 pm »
  A second question.  I seem to remember reading somewhere that these barbs butchered the legends because they had no written language of their own.  Having an oral tradition for communication, they didn't see anything wrong with randomly generated symbols to mimic Latin inscriptions since they had no meaning to them anyway.  Can anybody confirm that and perhaps direct me somewhere that I can read/learn more on that subject?
Best regards, Bob
added late 13 Dec 2004:  These celetors were obviously not stupid in that had no problem mimicking the major details of the head/bust/figure, but when it comes to words and copying letters, they completely abandon the effort.  The real question is why?  They obviously had coins in hand to copy.  What was so hard about copying the letters even if they did not understand them?

Offline Rhetor

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Re:Barbarian Votive?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2004, 12:05:49 pm »
 A second question.  I seem to remember reading somewhere that these barbs butchered the legends because they had no written language of their own.  Having an oral tradition for communication, they didn't see anything wrong with randomly generated symbols to mimic Latin inscriptions since they had no meaning to them anyway.  Can anybody confirm that and perhaps direct me somewhere that I can read/learn more on that subject?

The famous coin of the Anglo-Saxon Offa (late 8th c.) might be something to pursue along these lines.  Offa's mint reproduced an Islamic coin inscription, perhaps thinking that the Arabic was simply an attractive feature (the Anglo-Saxons loved complex interlace structures).  Some have (implausbly, IMO) argued that Offa was a closet Muslim from this obverse legend.

Of course, the Anglo-Saxons were hardly "barbarians."  We have six volumes of vernacular poetry recorded in the 10th century; nothing compares on the Continent at the same time.  While these may be older oral poems recorded by the Benedictines, they still reflect a highly developed culture.  There's lots more to A-S poetry than Beowulf!  We also have Asser's story of how Alfred the Great, as a boy, won a book of English poetry from his mother by memorizing it, and in later years Alfred would translate classical devotional works into Old English from Latin--though he might have done this "in his head" and dictated the works, and not via reading and writing.

But I'm rambling.  Here's one blurb about Offa and his coinage:

"He introduced silver coinage in England, producing the first English silver pennies, as well as a copy of the gold dinar of the Abbasid caliph Al-Mansur dated 157AH, which differs from the original by adding the inscription OFFA REX. Since this coin contains the Arabic profession of faith in Allah, it has been cited by some as proof that Offa had converted to Islam. However, it is infinitely more likely that the coin was produced in order to trade with Islamic Spain, and the king, his engravers, and officials, simply copied the Arabic coin without any comprehension of what the inscriptions said (particularly considering that "OFFA REX" is upside down in relation to the Arabic script, and the word "year" is misspelled in Arabic). Offa's coins also sometimes featured the image of Cynethryth." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offa

To read an argument that Offa was a Muslim and to view the coin in question, see: http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/offa.html

Waes Pu Hael!

Rhetor




Offline PeterD

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Re:Barbarian Votive?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2004, 01:33:53 pm »
For your edification here is a picture of "Offa's penny" with the dinar of al-Mansur.
Peter, London

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Massanutten

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Re:Barbarian Votive?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2004, 06:36:02 pm »
Rhetor,
    Thanks!  Very interesting read.  So, in the late 8th century the Anglo Saxons could perfectly mimic Arabic even though they had no idea what it meant.  I think the key, here, is that they knew their intended audience could read and made the effort for political gain.  Maybe that is the answer to the gibberish of the so called barbaric coins of the 4th century.  The coins simply were not intended for a Roman audience.  The celator or whoever was behind the minting knew the intended  'barbaric' audience  could not read so why expend the effort!  That works for me!!  Thanks for the lead!
Best regards, Bob

 

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